CyberneticPony | 2015-04-26 11:37:54 |
Why the hell is this combo not banned?
Tendou | 2015-04-26 11:46:33 |
arma+wall of illusion is worse and it is banned, too much info would be there if it is banned too, but i am not sure either, just my guess.
CyberneticPony | 2015-04-26 12:20:39 |
arma+wall of illusion is worse and it is banned, too much info would be there if it is banned too, but i am not sure either, just my guess. I see... but this honestly does feel really cheap when it happens. I basically have to win in 7 turns (or sometimes less) or lose.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-04-26 12:21:06 tati101 | 2015-04-26 13:14:12 |
Or heal or have ice guard out or ...
F11 + I4 x 2 = 60 damage
there are ways to play around stone rain + wall(s) of reflection but i'm too tired to analyse sorry...
Modified by filip on 2015-04-26 13:17:06 HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-26 13:45:43 |
... I see... but this honestly does feel really cheap when it happens. I basically have to win in 7 turns (or sometimes less) or lose.
You don't -- of those 7 turns, 3 are absorbed fully by your opponent setting this up, and it adds nothing to their board presence (possibly diminishes it in fact) so unless 40 damage actually kills you and they know they can get this outcome in 3 turns without dying themself, it's actually a really poor strategy. It is telegraphed way in advance if they're going to try it, so you already know what you have to do to survive it. Or, think of it like this: since it takes 3 turns to set up, it's the equivalent of them casting a 13 damage lightning bolt 3 times in a row without playing any creatures, and ask yourself just how often you would actually do such a thing and win unless you had already maneuvered your opponent into a serious disadvantage.
Tendou | 2015-04-26 14:30:47 |
... You don't -- of those 7 turns, 3 are absorbed fully by your opponent setting this up, and it adds nothing to their board presence (possibly diminishes it in fact) so unless 40 damage actually kills you and they know they can get this outcome in 3 turns without dying themself, it's actually a really poor strategy. It is telegraphed way in advance if they're going to try it, so you already know what you have to do to survive it.
Or, think of it like this: since it takes 3 turns to set up, it's the equivalent of them casting a 13 damage lightning bolt 3 times in a row without playing any creatures, and ask yourself just how often you would actually do such a thing and win unless you had already maneuvered your opponent into a serious disadvantage.
Yeah but wall of illusions can block, that is an important difference i think. Sinist | 2015-04-26 14:47:27 |
Why the hell is this combo not banned? Because it is not that powerful *captain Obvious* And counterable. Dragon + tornado + some nasty spell is much worse
Modified by Sinist on 2015-04-26 14:48:10 CyberneticPony | 2015-04-26 14:53:43 |
... You don't -- of those 7 turns, 3 are absorbed fully by your opponent setting this up, and it adds nothing to their board presence (possibly diminishes it in fact) so unless 40 damage actually kills you and they know they can get this outcome in 3 turns without dying themself, it's actually a really poor strategy. It is telegraphed way in advance if they're going to try it, so you already know what you have to do to survive it.
Or, think of it like this: since it takes 3 turns to set up, it's the equivalent of them casting a 13 damage lightning bolt 3 times in a row without playing any creatures, and ask yourself just how often you would actually do such a thing and win unless you had already maneuvered your opponent into a serious disadvantage.
Except it doesn't just do that; Stone Rain also clears the board of your creatures, and you really cannot be sure sometimes whether or not the opponent has Illusion 3 or 4, hence I don't think this is "broadcast" like other people claim.
Sinist | 2015-04-26 15:19:04 |
No matter whether opponent has wall of reflection or hypnosis, you have to prepare some healing (ideally earth 4 or water 6) to render his "grand combination" useless Og, and it is not like stone rain would not clear board from illusionist creatures, too
tati101 | 2015-04-26 15:35:33 |
... Except it doesn't just do that; Stone Rain also clears the board of your creatures, and you really cannot be sure sometimes whether or not the opponent has Illusion 3 or 4, hence I don't think this is "broadcast" like other people claim.
Eh? That makes no sense. Once the first wall of reflection comes out, you can be pretty sure they don't have Illusion 3.
HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-26 15:48:57 |
... Except it doesn't just do that; Stone Rain also clears the board of your creatures, and you really cannot be sure sometimes whether or not the opponent has Illusion 3 or 4, hence I don't think this is "broadcast" like other people claim.
Stone rain clears the board of creatures with 25 HP or less that are vulnerable to it. So, you can play creatures that survive it, you can play heading cards, you can meditate if you're already in a position where you'll come out ahead once they clear the board, you can play a dragon with a huge lightning bolt that threatens to kill them unless they heal instead of carrying out their stone rain plan. It is broadcast as soon as they play the first illusion 4 and you know they'll have enough to stone rain it. It is particularly easy to spot if they are doing this without even blocking creatures, but even if they are, you should always be keeping the possibility of stone rain in mind if you know your opponent might have it, that's regardless of whether you're playing illusion or any other class. It is one of the most significant cards they can have.
HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-26 15:49:50 |
... Yeah but wall of illusions can block, that is an important difference i think.
Difference from what? Sure they can block, but they cannot attack, so any creature opposing them who can survive stone rain will be left putting you behind in board control unless you're actually getting the kill.
srbhkshk | 2015-04-26 16:17:36 |
Illusion 4 play is quite possibly the weakest illusion play out there, the only time it hurts is if you are caught unprepared or wasted your healing options.
HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-26 16:28:39 |
Illusion 4 play is quite possibly the weakest illusion play out there, the only time it hurts is if you are caught unprepared or wasted your healing options. Hmm, I don't know if I would go that far, it depends on the situation. It's just that it's a slow method of doing damage. I tend to think of it as actually pretty similar to wall of lightning, which is another card that usually won't win you the game if you try to use it as your main method of damage but if you use it as a supplement it can give that extra bit of pressure you need.
Wavelength | 2015-04-26 21:30:27 |
Come on now, this is just silly.
Even at two WoR's plus a perfectly played Stone Rain, you're talking a cost of 3 turns and ~23 converted mana (8 * 1.75 + 9) for 40 direct damage and (at best) a marginal board advantage recovery.
This is actually one of the most expensive ways in the game to deal direct damage (compare Lightning Bolt or Insanian Berserker or even Illusion's own Spectral Assassin, which provides significant board control) and it's one of the least reliable (since it requires several turns to build mana and then a few more to set up).
Watching the opponent drop a few WoR's and then one-shot you from 40 life might feel painful to watch, but if you think you lost to an overpowered combo, you're simply denying yourself the ability to grow. What you actually lost to (95% of the time) was a tragic mismanagement of your own heals or a failure in your early game to apply enough board pressure to force your opponent to spend their Earth or Illusion mana.
i know this will sound harsh, but CP you gotta stop trying to prove to yourself that the game is imbalanced and instead focus on trying to understand it and become a better player
MikeBnDe | 2015-04-27 10:34:42 |
i know this will sound harsh, but CP you gotta stop trying to prove to yourself that the game is imbalanced and instead focus on trying to understand it and become a better player CP, filip ist right. I really think you waste your mental resources focusing on what you think is imbalance. That's a shame, because that is what is holding you back to become a better player, you are smarter than that. Ilusion 4 + earth 9 is a good example, it usually is not a broken combo most of the times and a good player will not loose against it. It can be dangerous if one has bad heal and chooses the wrong startegy from the start, but it is NOT broken. Instead of complaing, concentrate on playing around that combo the next couple of times you play against illusion,you can do it ;-)
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2015-04-27 10:38:57 CyberneticPony | 2015-04-27 14:09:08 |
I never said this was an imbalance actually. I think Illusion is one of the most balanced classes in the game. I just think this is extremely cheap. It punishes you for playing cards. For those saying it's expensive; think of what it FORCES the other player to waste in terms of their mana just to block it; I think this is a really efficient setup just because it's DD + Board Clear rolled into one. If you are heal screwed, you lose the game.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-04-27 14:09:29 Sinist | 2015-04-27 14:19:41 |
Cheap you say... And is not dragon + control 5 cheap? goblin 1 spam? Double time 4? Time 6 + time 2? Earth 11 + illusion 2? Vampire 8 + fire 11? And so on...
HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-27 14:24:17 |
I never said this was an imbalance actually. That's generally what it suggests if you think something should be banned.
CyberneticPony | 2015-04-27 14:34:35 |
Cheap you say... And is not dragon + control 5 cheap? goblin 1 spam? Double time 4? Time 6 + time 2? Earth 11 + illusion 2? Vampire 8 + fire 11? And so on... Goblin 1 spam is not cheap because you can just play cards to seperate them to minimise their damage, and just play solid ramp; they're wasting a lot of tempo doing this and G1s die easily to even weaker sweeps. Control 5 is cheap in general. It needs to be fixed. Time 4 is cheap if you have any sort of advantage; but sucks if you don't have advantage; it just is a game ender button when a player picks up a lot of presence, but otherwise useless. Everyone knows this is a problem card already because it's swingy. Time 2 is cheap in general. It needs to be fixed. Earth 11 + Illusion 2 is a valid combo, it doesn't provide much in the way of damage, it's pure block, and pretty much rests on one card. Tornado and the combo is gone. Vamp 8 + Fire 11 costs more, does less DD than this combo, and the board clear is weaker unless you've pretty much equalled on board presence, which is something you generally avoid in the vamp matchup anyway because both V7 and V8 punish trying to take the board; you generally rely on DD timings to beat vampire, abusing their life costs and weaker initial presence (due to the drain of life from their creatues) because vamps do better in the longer game. I mean, why am I not complaining about Acidic Rain but I'm complaining about Stone Rain? Because Stone Rain kills nearly every basic creature in the game. The creatures that it does not kill are ones you tend to want to avoid because otherwise I3 will punish you for playing them. The I3/I4 switch has to be predicted or it's a surefire death. You just don't have any sort of room for reaction with this combo.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-04-27 14:34:55 Sinist | 2015-04-27 14:42:37 |
You seem to think that tornado is always in your draw yet forget that you may also have water 6 or earth 4 vs that "dreadful" ill 4 - earth 9 combo... And goblin 1 spam is by no means easy to beat even when nerfed, trust me. Vamp 8 also gives you solid board presence unlike your combo, doesn it vamp 7 can almost always be called "cheap" (two free phoenixes which do not take away fire mana!) You might as well claim that stone rain is generally imbalanced. Well, solution is very simple: dont play many basic creatures (except earth 1) if you are afraid of it
Modified by Sinist on 2015-04-27 14:43:34 CyberneticPony | 2015-04-27 15:21:02 |
You seem to think that tornado is always in your draw yet forget that you may also have water 6 or earth 4 vs that "dreadful" ill 4 - earth 9 combo... And goblin 1 spam is by no means easy to beat even when nerfed, trust me. Vamp 8 also gives you solid board presence unlike your combo, doesn it vamp 7 can almost always be called "cheap" (two free phoenixes which do not take away fire mana!) You might as well claim that stone rain is generally imbalanced. Well, solution is very simple: dont play many basic creatures (except earth 1) if you are afraid of it Without torando, that combo is powerful, but with tornado the combo becomes useless; the point was that its strength is dictated on the presumption of no tornado; it can be a really weak play. "Trust me" <- Fat chance. And you can't know whether stone rain is in the pool or not; if you presume it's there, but it isn't, you will fall behind on presence and then die. Honestly, a lot of this game is just based on that "guess if X card is in the pool or not, guess wrong and die". Some classes have this more than others; and those classes are generally the ones that hurt a lot. Death is EXTREMELY boring because of this.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-04-27 15:21:33 srbhkshk | 2015-04-27 15:39:23 |
... Honestly, a lot of this game is just based on that "guess if X card is in the pool or not, guess wrong and die". Some classes have this more than others; and those classes are generally the ones that hurt a lot. Death is EXTREMELY boring because of this.
Its actually more about "prepare for what cards the opponent can have in his pool, but there will be rare occasion when you won't be able to do anything in spite of that", "rare" being the keyword here. I am just reiterating what others are saying but still, Illusion-4 and Earth-9 is a really slow and really obvious combo , unless you are heal screwed its easy to deal with it, the situations you are mentioning probably occur because you use mid range creatures more than you should. ShadowofMordor | 2015-04-27 16:02:18 |
Honestly, a lot of this game is just based on that "guess if X card is in the pool or not, guess wrong and die". Some classes have this more than others; and those classes are generally the ones that hurt a lot. Death is EXTREMELY boring because of this.
Personally it's why I LOVE death ... it's just a matter of tastes sometimes and how you play or like playing :) SoM
Tendou | 2015-04-27 19:36:43 |
... Without torando, that combo is powerful, but with tornado the combo becomes useless; the point was that its strength is dictated on the presumption of no tornado; it can be a really weak play.
"Trust me" <- Fat chance.
And you can't know whether stone rain is in the pool or not; if you presume it's there, but it isn't, you will fall behind on presence and then die.
Honestly, a lot of this game is just based on that "guess if X card is in the pool or not, guess wrong and die". Some classes have this more than others; and those classes are generally the ones that hurt a lot. Death is EXTREMELY boring because of this.
Yeah, i agree with the last part of what you wrote but if you are not sure whether your opponent has any key cards then i mostly presume it is there, btw i can see situations where someone goes for total board control with better cards then his opponent come up with and it turns out the opponent can't handle the rush so the blind rusher wins but i think it is pretty rare because if you presume your opponent has stone rain e.g. and it turns out he didnt have it then he may also not invest too much into the board presuiming you are having it too. I just think most of the time you can predict some things forward and make preferences of what you should presume and what not and also usually there are at least a handful of option sin most hands to make mana efficient attacks to which your opponent may have to react ot. CyberneticPony | 2015-04-27 19:53:48 |
... Yeah, i agree with the last part of what you wrote but if you are not sure whether your opponent has any key cards then i mostly presume it is there, btw i can see situations where someone goes for total board control with better cards then his opponent come up with and it turns out the opponent can't handle the rush so the blind rusher wins but i think it is pretty rare because if you presume your opponent has stone rain e.g. and it turns out he didnt have it then he may also not invest too much into the board presuiming you are having it too. I just think most of the time you can predict some things forward and make preferences of what you should presume and what not and also usually there are at least a handful of option sin most hands to make mana efficient attacks to which your opponent may have to react ot.
I generally presume things based on what mana I notice my opponent is saving. I have often been irked when somebody spends some mana of one house, making me less concerned about it, but then later in the game a big card from the house seems imminent and I felt like there was little I could have done to actually stop it. EDIT: Maybe I jumped the gun: Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-04-27 20:53:03 |