Cooler | 2014-11-11 18:20:41 |
Can you explain this? Are there any reasons not to ban you? Modified by Wavelength on 2014-11-12 07:32:30 LaoTse | 2014-11-11 20:20:12 |
Yes many reasons... Ban? Why ban these kid who just wants to be part of a community? Are there any reasons? What did he do wrong, to play with me??
If wanna ban, ban me!!! Cooler | 2014-11-11 20:26:05 |
If wanna ban, ban me!!!
Why you!? He got the advantage by power-leveling, not you!
tosher | 2014-11-11 21:21:48 |
Oh. And this guy seemed normal, and then this. Of course the ban and removal of all reputation with your account, I don't know what explanation can there be, but to wait for you one day.
FORESTRY | 2014-11-11 23:38:40 |
... Can you explain this? Are there any reasons not to ban you?
Eh, I know how this looks, so I'll explain and do what you must.
1. Lao is my friend and we all know this, he lives in different time zone, so when we do meet we play for a long time while we chat because we probably wont meet in a while. (This explains the long sessions)
2. He does have the habit of surrendering when he loses, which is out of my control; I never asked him to do it, and I even asked him to stop it, so my only choice was to stop playing with him or making a big issue out of it, which I did not think was a big issue.
3. Although many might think "omg free exp", this is not true, most duels lasted between 7-10 minutes which is normal time, and most of the wins are legitimate, beyond the him surrendering part, i do have around a 70-80% winrate against him.
4. Ive seen a lot of high levels that all they do is play against lvl 10-15 all of the time which guarantees them free experience farming.
So I will ask some questions:
¿Is there a limit number of duels per day allowed against a single person? ¿What number is the limit?
¿Should I be punished for something I did not actively plan?
¿Is playing against players of lower skill a bannable offense?
I know that beyond logic and justice there's the eyes of the community and this cannot go unpunished, but I wouldn't like a complete ban (please), reset my stats if you may, I don't want to have to buy the game again crusader9 | 2014-11-12 00:04:26 |
... Can you explain this? Are there any reasons not to ban you?
It's a good thing this was brought up. As a newbie here I wasn't aware that there were community rules when it comes to duelling. My assumption was you buy the game, log into multiplayer, and just play whoever you want for as long as you want. Is there a post that shows all the rules so I can read over them? HeadphonesGirl | 2014-11-12 01:05:49 |
I'd give Forestry the benefit of the doubt on that, for what it's worth. He's always been a positive contributor to the community and he puts so much effort into analyzing the game it's hard to believe that he would cheat.
let me get this straight: is forestry the winner of all those duels?
2. He does have the habit of surrendering when he loses, which is out of my control [...]
did you mean to say he is surrendering when he is about to win?
3. [...] most duels lasted between 7-10 minutes which is normal time,
this is quite important i think, as it doesn't fit well with power leveling. of course it doesn't provide any proof to the contrary either
and most of the wins are legitimate, beyond the him surrendering part [...]
which ones are non-legitimate? do i understand correctly that he surrenders all games, even the ones he would actually win?
4. Ive seen a lot of high levels that all they do is play against lvl 10-15 all of the time which guarantees them free experience farming.
this is not true in my experience. the XP rewards/penalties are such that i cannot efficiently level up playing against low-level players. i need to win at least 3 out of 4 games every time. perhaps someone else could do it consistently (perhaps in my case it is lack of commitment and concentration that keeps me from coming out on top) but it certainly isn't a piece of cake, as far as i can tell
anyway, if lao is conceding all games then i'm afraid this is power leveling indeed. it is not fair to other players using the ladder system. you could just play training duels if XP was not an issue for you. on the other hand, if you were just playing lots of games and lao was simply losing 75% of them, then i don't see anything wrong with all that. except in case that lao was deliberately playing lousy in order to lose on purpose and make you gain XP without you asking for it. that would be a very unfortunate and complicated situation... which would have to be penalized in principle. but on what evidence...? a (not so theoretical) example contradicting that verdict could be that lao, as a low-level player, is distracted by the on-going conversation a lot more than forestry, resulting in a warp of game results compared to the real skill difference between them...
Modified by filip on 2014-11-12 02:03:25 CyberneticPony | 2014-11-12 01:07:57 |
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This is copied from the Terms of Service that you should have read. Legally, "You may not work around any technical limitations in the Program," can justify bans for ratings exploits. However, I'd give Forestry the benefit of the doubt personally, but still reset his stats. It might be a good idea to have the rules clearly written somewhere.
HeadphonesGirl | 2014-11-12 01:21:22 |
... It's a good thing this was brought up. As a newbie here I wasn't aware that there were community rules when it comes to duelling. My assumption was you buy the game, log into multiplayer, and just play whoever you want for as long as you want. Is there a post that shows all the rules so I can read over them?
Just to be clear, what Cooler is suggesting is not that Forestry played too many games against this person, but that he was engaging in a form of cheating where two players (or one player with two accounts) intentionally throw games to illegitimately level one of the accounts up without any effort.
It's sort of an awkward thing for you to have seen as a new player since we all know and respect Forestry -- but like I said, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because I don't think he would have any reason to cheat for a higher level when he has put a lot of sincere effort into improving at the game.
Sorry if this gave you the impression that the community throws around ban hammers for dubious reasons, it definitely isn't like that. Eurydice | 2014-11-12 03:51:14 |
Forestry is a good player, and gives great advice here on the forum, a great help. But it looks like power-leveling to me. I have observed games of these playing and Insanian loses intentionally. Insanian used "show cards," I see clear win in the hand and he surrender when he should win. This happened many times. If he is your friend, Forestry, why not train? If he does things like this you do not like?
Wavelength | 2014-11-12 05:09:43 |
It's not okay to boost, but I want to say one thing: the kind of "unintentional boost" that Forestry engaged is definitely a more common thing that I would have expected - and in my experience I've usually seen it as a "one-time indulgence" than a premeditated, continuous attempt to cheat. In the last year I've encountered several people who seemed to want to "donate" wins to me - it's not always immediately obvious until they surrender right before a winning move, or on the first turn of the game, or similar. This really surprises me. I always immediately give those points back by surrendering a game myself, and tell the person something like "while I appreciate the gesture, please don't do it again, since I don't want points that I didn't earn". But they often say something along the lines of "you're too nice", and it made me think: from the "giver's" perspective, they're doing something that's nice with points that they legitimately earned, and from the "receiver's" perspective, it can be hard to say no and sometimes even harder to give the points back. As such, I feel it is understandable that some people give into this temptation for a session or two. Again, this act should not be condoned, but I think it's a much more innocent thing than the intentional and disruptive cheating we have seen bans for in the past, where someone makes multiple accounts for the sole purpose of boosting one of them to a high level.With all that in mind, I agree with HeadphonesGirl that I think it would be good to give Forestry the benefit of the doubt. A severe XP (5000?) and Glory (100?) penalty would be warranted to compensate for any possible gain that he could have made through questionable means. But it would be very unfortunate to see such a positive member of the community get banned for getting caught up in something that he didn't really mean to. Just my two cents.
Modified by Wavelength on 2014-11-12 05:44:54 Cooler | 2014-11-12 06:58:41 |
Again, this act should not be condoned, but I think it's a much more innocent thing than the intentional and disruptive cheating we have seen bans for in the past, where someone makes multiple accounts for the sole purpose of boosting one of them to a high level.
With all that in mind, I agree with HeadphonesGirl that I think it would be good to give Forestry the benefit of the doubt. A severe XP (5000?) and Glory (100?) penalty would be warranted to compensate for any possible gain that he could have made through questionable means. But it would be very unfortunate to see such a positive member of the community get banned for getting caught up in something that he didn't really mean to.
Completely agree - this is exactly what I think about this. Thanks, Wave! Yes, obviously this isn't a disruptive cheating. That's why I asked here, since I really don't want to ban for that. So I decided to imply a 3000 exp + 100 glory penalty.
Summary: when you're playing a rated duel - you're expected to play in full strength, otherwise play trainings. Modified by Cooler on 2014-11-12 07:00:44 Wavelength | 2014-11-12 07:40:29 |
Three cheers for the wise and fair king Cooler!! I really like that this somewhat inadvertant rule-break could be handled with some lenience, with the goal being to correct the injustice rather than to indiscriminantly punish any offense. I don't see that on the internet very often! You said it really well just now - in a Rated Duel, the community has the expectation you will be trying to win, for the sake of fairness in rankings. In an Unrated Training Match with a friend, feel free to screw around. (Also, I edited your first post to reattach the screenshot, as it seemed to have gotten deleted when you moved the message from the other thread to this one.)
Modified by Wavelength on 2014-11-12 07:44:49 Jeronimo | 2014-11-12 07:48:52 |
Tournament of Champions.
Wavelength | 2014-11-12 07:51:21 |
Tournament of Champions. Oh snap!
FORESTRY | 2014-11-12 08:38:29 |
... Completely agree - this is exactly what I think about this. Thanks, Wave!Yes, obviously this isn't a disruptive cheating. That's why I asked here, since I really don't want to ban for that. So I decided to imply a 3000 exp + 100 glory penalty.
Summary: when you're playing a rated duel - you're expected to play in full strength, otherwise play trainings.
Thank you, this won't happen again. |