So, I'll be the first to admit I'm not amazing at this game, but I hardly think I'm terrible as well. That being said, there's clearly plenty of room for improvement. Lurking around the forum's helped somewhat, but not so much that I don't think I couldn't get better. So basically, this is me asking for help using certain cards.
Fire: 4: I'm pretty sure the consensus is just this is a fairly weak card and hard to use in general, but it can't hurt to ask. I pretty much just use it as an emergency burn spell that stays of the field or to apply pressure in the end game, where I find it's haste comes in handy. Just wondering if there's anything else worth considering with this guy.
12: I'm probably just not using dragon all that well. Most times he's just a giant body on the board, unless I'm playing sorcery. Ocasionaly he combos with earth or air 6, or air 8, but most of the time he's just a body. Though getting him out turn 3 doesn't seem like a terrible strategy unless you fear tornado. But anyway, how do you best set him up?
10+12: when I'm fortunate/unfortunate to get both, I almost always just go for the elemental because it's mana. What situations would dragon be preferred?
Water: 1: There was a time where I was always disappointed when I didn't get meditate, now I kind of hate it when I do get it. 3 mana for 1 seems like a good idea at first, but the time investment often isn't. Nowadays I just use meditate to get out an elemental a turn faster or to do something without actually doing anything. Is there some strategy to using meditate I'm missing?
8: For whatever reason, I find myself not casting acid rain all that often, instead going for water 10 or 11, which kind of surprised me when I realized it because I usually hate acid rain more when it's played against me than stone rain due to the mana drain. How does one best utilize this?
6+10: A lot of games nowadays are against Illusion (due to it being the free class), and I just find life gain in general to be useful, but when you get both ice guard and the elemental, I often times don't know which would be more beneficial. The elemental's 10 life and mana gain is very appealing, but the guard will probably prevent more damage than the elementla will grant. Which is better in which situations?
Air: 1: I tend to only play this when I'm trying to to waste mana or when anticipating removal from my opponent. Occasionally, but very occasionally, I'll actually use it's extra damage, but it mostly seems pointless. Is there some purpose it has I'm missing?
7: I admit, there was a time where I thought Phoenix was all that, until I was properly beaten down whilst using it. Now I tend to just hate getting it as I have no idea how to use it, except for the rare cases where my fire tends to go unused in favor of armegedon, and even then I'll only use it if necessary.
In addition, I tend to not know how to deal with it as well as I probably should. I often stick a hydra, turtle, or lightning wall in front of it, but sometimes I just struggle against the strategy, especially if they have geddon and/or stone rain TIps?
9+11: When I have both the cloud and elemental, I often have trouble deciding which to go for. I consider the elemental to be the better card as it's direct damage and mana gain are very useful, but the cloud can be an exceptionally useful board sweeper if you can keep it alive. In what situations would I favor one over the other?
10+12: I never know what to do here: put out the beefy body, or save mana in case of need of an emergency tornado. Typically I just hold onto the mana unless the biggest threat on the board is something I can kill with titan and I know he can't put out anything big. Is that the optimal strategy here?
Earth: 3: Is sprite + minotaur good enough to warrant being aggressive with sprite instead of defensive?
7: I typically view this as a defensive card, but occasionally go offensive with it. Is it worth the offensive capabilities? Is it worth playing if you only get one spider?
8: FOr a while, I almost ignored this card infavor of earth 10-12, but I've since been using it as a blocker that just won't die, but is a threat to the monster on the other side, kind of like turtle. Is that it's best use, or is it worth going offensive with this guy?
10+12: Again, I'm not entirely sure which to go for here. Typically I go for the hydra for it's board control and it's longer lasting life spawn, but the elemental is mana. Which situations would elemental be better?
Holy: 2: I use this just as a blocker that I don't care when it dies, or to play something without spending mana. Is that basically just what he's used for?
4: I almost always only see judgement be used on turn 2/3 to heal my opponent's mana producer and kill mine, or just kill mine. This just doesn't seem worth it to me, 4 special mana to kill the mana generator and possibly one of your own guys? And it's pretty easy to anticipate, and, when I remember I'm playing agaiinst a holy player, I'll typically just play a golem in anticipation of it. It just seems like there are better uses for this card, though I admit I rarely cast it myself.
6: When playing holy, my opponents always anticipate this and never go past 3 monsters. IS it worth casting just for 12 damage when you don't have judgement?
8: A lot of the time, I just can't get huge heals off this guy. How do you best set him up?
Death:
4: WHen is it a good idea to go for this cheap yet beefy guy? I typically use him on Air/earth 1s early in the game, or on a fire wall that my opponent just won't kill, or next to water 9.
8: I typically use my fire mana for removal (how silly of me), so when it gets time to cast this guy, I maybe have 6 fire, which can still seem solid. What's the lowest fire mana total that makes this guy worth casting?
Mechanics: 2: I just find myself never, ever casting this guy. His ability just doesn't seem worth it when I could be saving up for mech 4-8. What's the strategy for using him?
Dominator: Oh let's be honest, I just suck with dominator. 5-8 seem straightforward enough to use, but 1-4 just seem tricky. Weakness seems like such a strong spell, and it's always used amazingly against me, but I just never seem to know just when to cast it like my opponents typically do. the goblin and wall I typically just cast hoping they'll be disruptive, and the horror... yeah, I just don't know about him.
Chaos: 1: How worth spamming is this? I've seen it done with mixed success, but usually not very much. I'll put out 1-2 myself early on, but I've seen games where it's litterally the only thing played for several turns.Is it worth spending that much specialty mana on life gain?
5: Is it worth using? I use it in hopes it'll disrupt my opponent, but... it does or it doesn't somewhat randomly> Chaotically one might say. Should I just save my mana?
8: This guy seems awesome, but there are times where I regret playing him as he prevents me from casting more creatures at times. I try to anticipate this, but sometimes it can just mess you up. WHen is it best to use him?
Illusion: 4: Typically I don't find the wall to be much of a problem when playing against it, since it's rather slow and gives me ample time to heal. Knowing this, I usually won't play it unless necessary for the same reason. Is this optimal?
5: I usually just see people "spam" this, but it's fairly easy to counter with life gain. It just seems like spamming this isn't the best illusion strategy... but it is pretty dominant. As I don't really play illusion much (except when I'm playing on random), I'll often do the same, while being mindful of my cheaper spells.
7: Is it worth putting 2 of these out?
8: Is it worth saving up for him? Seems like the extra specilty mana's useful, but the rest of him seems mediocre.
Demonology:
3: Is it worth casting this if you'll only get 0-2 mana off it?
8: How do you best utilize it's on death trigger?
Beast mastery:
4: I find myself never playing him. What's the best way to use him?
6: Against illusion, I only use elephant as "life gain," but it's stats seem like it would be good at offense as well. Is it worth going offensive with the elephan, or is that a task better suited for basalisk and dragon?
Sorcery:
3: Is it ever worth casting if you don't get the mana back off it?
4: I more or less just use sacrifice turn 2/3 or on a fire wall my opponent won't kill for me, or to recuperate late game when low on mana. Am I using it right, or is there more to this card?
8: Is it worth using just as a tornado? As in, when your opponent has nothing else out?
***
Anyway, I know that's a lot of advice seeking, but, well, this is a complex game and I'm only a middle range player. Thanks in advance for any assistance offered. | Kaylee | 2010-07-22 17:49:20 |
I don't have time right now to offer any actual advice, but I would like to congratulate you on a great, great post. It's such a pleasant change of pace from all the imbalance and change suggestion threads, and far more useful.
| Floofy | 2010-07-22 19:04:15 |
Interesting topic.heres some comments
Fire 4: Well, first its an excellent counter to ice golem. Other than that, can be ok to finish off creatures or rush
Fire 12: He is great with air 8. be carefull of tornado...
Fire 10: Well i like this guy if i have earth 2 and water 3 mostly :P otherwise i prefer dragon
Water 1: Well this has 2 key uses: rushing a specific card that you need fast, OR kinda skipping a turn because you expect a mass destruction spell
Water 8: Always keep in mind it removes 1 of every ennemy ressources, so its pretty good sometimes. its cheap if you deduct what you remove from the ennemy
Air 1: I agree with you. only times i ever like having this card is if there are some 10 life units on the board and i want to do flame wave or chain lightning...
earth 12: Hydra is really strong, just be carefull of tornado and YOUR LIFE. when my oppomement does hydra i generally dont try to kill it, i try to kill opponement instead
Modified by Floofy on 2010-07-22 19:04:35 | wiggin | 2010-07-22 20:19:35 |
Those were some good question. You are going to increase in rating soon.
Some of your questions for the basic cards, can be answered in my thread, I think: | wiggin | 2010-07-22 20:19:43 |
Beast mastery:
4: I find myself never playing him. What's the best way to use him?
-He has quite good stats and board presence for 4 mana. Use it to secure early board control. If the opponent invests massively to regain board control, you can sit back, use the effect, and then mass destruct. I don't personally use it that often, and almost always find it preferable to wait for the powerhouse beast 5.
6: Against illusion, I only use elephant as "life gain," but it's stats seem like it would be good at offense as well. Is it worth going offensive with the elephan, or is that a task better suited for basalisk and dragon?
- He is extremely good in a mutual aggression game, where both players are going for the life total. Place him in and open slot, and let the opponents creatures hit you. You will both take massive damage, but only he will die.
Sorcery:
3: Is it ever worth casting if you don't get the mana back off it?
-No.
4: I more or less just use sacrifice turn 2/3 or on a fire wall my opponent won't kill for me, or to recuperate late game when low on mana. Am I using it right, or is there more to this card?
-Yeah, I pretty much only use it in turn 2/3. It's a huge game changer, and can be extremely strong. But you need to have the right draw. Good cards with it are big mass destruction, life gain and elementals.
8: Is it worth using just as a tornado? As in, when your opponent has nothing else out?
- No. Sometimes you have no other way to use your sorcery mana, but you should be annoyed with it. | Wavelength | 2010-07-22 20:49:50 |
Just my advice, obviously biased from my style of play. But hopefully some of the analysis will be helpful.
Fire:
4: It has one more use, and that's to turn Board Control quickly. Most methods of immediately eliminating an enemy's creature don't get a creature on the board. Fire Drake does. This can be nice to take out an ailing Ice Golem, or a high-priority creature (Goblin Shaman or Mind Master, perhaps) with 4 or less HP. Yeah, the creature you're getting here isn't wonderful, but it puts the pressure right back onto the opponent, immediately.
12: I personally consider Dragon to be the best card in the game, by far. Chain Lightning is the most common combo here, but Flame Wave works if you're packing Merfolk Apostate, Call to Thunder at 9/9 is nice, and most special classes can combo nicely with Dragon at least half the time. As for setting him up when you don't hold Tornado, try to get him out before your opponent reaches 10 air mana if you can; otherwise, play something like Earth Elemental first. Also, watch your opponent if s/he's playing Sorcery, Sorcery 8 is a perfect counter and the other cards 5-7 can also screw up your plans.
10+12: I would go for Dragon every single time unless there's no useful spell coming within 2-3 turns of his being cast, or the 3 damage from Fire Elemental is really important for because of the board situation, or I'm sure my opponent will Tornado whichever one I place on the board.
Water:
1: You've pretty much gotten the point; its best use is when the turn wasn't important (e.g., you know your opponent is about to clear the board). There's one more time I may use it--when it will accelerate at least two of my other high priority cards by a turn. So let's say I'm sitting at 7 air mana and 8 earth mana, I have nothing great to play this turn, and I plan to use Lightning Cloud and Master Healer. I'll use Meditation now and be able to heal my existing creature and wipe out the opponent's that much quicker.
8: Not really my specialty (My favorite water cards in the upper range are 7, 9, and to some extent 11), but I sometimes use Acid Rain around turn 3-4, if my opponent has so far been playing a more aggressive board control game than I have. I also like to combo it with other board clears to wipe out multiple enemy big creatures.
6+10: As a rule of thumb, in the "healscrew" situation you described, play Water Elemental only if you're absolutely sure you can get Ice Guard out in time (3 turns later), or if the opponent is holding something like Inferno that can take your Ice Guard out instantly anyway.
Air:
1: I call Faerie Apprentice the "check in the dark" card. Use it when there's nothing else great that you want to use that turn, since it's cheap and doesn't present a void slot.
7: If you can time it well, you can make Phoenix into a 6/36+ creature by having it die right before you use a card that puts you below 10 fire mana. Also, with a lot of finesse and a good healing hand, Phoenix strategies do okay even at high levels. You can also use it as a bluff to make your opponent drop a board clear before you hit 10 Fire mana. Don't play it if your opponent is rushing you!
Beating 7: Often the best strategy is to put creatures in open slots and try to rush them! Hydra, Healer, Elementals (if you have Natural Fury), Wall of Lightnings, Forest Sprite, Three-Headed Demon, and Phantom Warrior are all good cards to put in front of Phoenix, but all are situational.
9+11: I tend not to like Air Elemental in most situations so I'm probably not the best person to ask here. But most times I'd go for Lightning Cloud, unless the higher HP of the Elemental is important (see: Water 6+10).
10+12: I think your strategy is pretty good here. One important thing to think about is how important taking board control is at the moment. Titan's 15 damage is nice, but the creature stats are what makes him valuable. If you can leverage that to overrun the board, well, that's when you really want to use Titan.
Earth:
3: The short answer is yes, the synergy is good enough to be aggressive. The long answer is that the Sprite is still somewhat of a void slot until there are three on the board (with a Minotaur), and you often have to be careful that the opponent can't Armageddon, Stone Rain, or Cannonade all of your creatures.
7: At the high levels, this becomes an almost exclusively offensive card. Give it a try as part of a varied creature-rush sometime! No, it's generally not worth it for only one little Spider.
8: It's a lot like Turtle, and leans slightly more towards offense than Turtle does. I will occasionally use Troll but generally prefer to save up for any 10-12 Earth card (because all three high Earth cards are very good).
10+12: This one can be an extremely tough call. My opinion is that they are both about equally good, but will serve you best in different circumstances. I can't quite figure out these circumstances. But what's for sure is that Earth Elemental is generally better against a single big target that you need to neutralize, and Hydra is generally better against mid-level creature rushes or (often) chump blockers.
I'll post responses to the Special classes some other time.
| Chance | 2010-07-22 22:00:31 |
Chaos
[chaos 1]: This is the bread and butter of chaos. You will either have 1 or 2. Whatever one it is will be the card you lean on. I try to drop 3 - 4 of these unopposed, saving up for something like Water 8 to clear the board of mana generators & co. If you have chaos 1, then your strategy is to develop a large early life advantage which you can leverage by ignoring enemy board control cards (water 7, earth 8, etc.) in exchange for placing investment cards (elementals, dragon, etc). While you're dropping chaos 1, you're building up your standard houses. By the time you sweep, you should be able to drop a series of large well-scaling creatures. Chaos 1 really drives this strategy.
[chaos 5]: If you have Water 12, then this is the card you *MUST* follow up with. Even if a tornado follows the Water 12, he's still placed in a resource panic. (let me add: trading Water 12 for Air 10 is an excellent deal. Becomes 12 basic mana paid to remove 14 basic mana + 1 special mana). Also, if I have even SLIGHT board advantage, 5 chaos, and no worry of immediate sweeps, i will always play this. It tends to pay for itself through the combination of its ability and eliciting a panic response to rewrite the opponent's previous plan. An underplayed card. Dramatically better than Chaos 6 IMO. If Chaos 6 suddenly became 4 mana, I'd still rather drop 5 on this one instead.
[chaos 8]: Eh. I always prefer 7. In my mind, his ideal use is this. Opponent does not have tornado or has low air. Build up fire mana to have one or two Fire 6 or Fire 9's ready to go. Drop water 8 or earth 9 to clear the board. Follow up the next turn with Chaos 8. Otherwise I rather just see him as a filler. If you have the mana, he's probably better than anything else you have ready to go. But the thing is, you PROBABLY don't want to plan TO have the mana. That's the caveat that reduces his value. Modified by Chance on 2010-07-22 22:04:33 12: I'm probably just not using dragon all that well. Most times he's just a giant body on the board, unless I'm playing sorcery. Ocasionaly he combos with earth or air 6, or air 8, but most of the time he's just a body. Though getting him out turn 3 doesn't seem like a terrible strategy unless you fear tornado. But anyway, how do you best set him up?
12 is huge. Try to plan ahead with him and drop him a turn before you can sweep either with air 9 or with mech 7, death 5, control 5, etc. Possibly broken with sorcery. Also good with direct damage cards.
10+12: when I'm fortunate/unfortunate to get both, I almost always just go for the elemental because it's mana. What situations would dragon be preferred?
Is there a spell that can combo? Do you have tornado? Does opponent have less than 8 air mana. If so go for Dragon.
Water:
8: For whatever reason, I find myself not casting acid rain all that often, instead going for water 10 or 11, which kind of surprised me when I realized it because I usually hate acid rain more when it's played against me than stone rain due to the mana drain. How does one best utilize this?
Tough card to use optimally. There are some openings that do well when you have this card. This is on my #3 card that I check whether I have (after earth 2 and air 10). I'd wait on this one but a good understanding of how to play when you have this card is probably necessary for getting past +15 rank.
6+10: A lot of games nowadays are against Illusion (due to it being the free class), and I just find life gain in general to be useful, but when you get both ice guard and the elemental, I often times don't know which would be more beneficial. The elemental's 10 life and mana gain is very appealing, but the guard will probably prevent more damage than the elementla will grant. Which is better in which situations?
I think you overvalue elementals. Games will speed up as you progress in rank. Unless you feel pretty safe that the game will last awhile, go for water 6. Illusion is the anti elemental class (illusion 3).
9+11: When I have both the cloud and elemental, I often have trouble deciding which to go for. I consider the elemental to be the better card as it's direct damage and mana gain are very useful, but the cloud can be an exceptionally useful board sweeper if you can keep it alive. In what situations would I favor one over the other?
The best way to improve your playing is to shift the way you play from considering what play is best for you and what play is worst for your opponent. You are asking the wrong question. It depends on how your opponent can counter, which should be constantly on your mind. Can your opponent inferno next turn and kill it. Could he have acid rain or stone rain. Dropping an Air 9 when you are sure it is safe for a bit is usually a great play and can really apply pressure. If you think the game is slow enough that the resource differential is more important, Air 11 can be better. Overall I play air 9 way more myself though. Brutal card if they can't respond.
7: I typically view this as a defensive card, but occasionally go offensive with it. Is it worth the offensive capabilities? Is it worth playing if you only get one spider?
Again, depending on your opponent's options, Earth 7 can be a really strong drop. But unlike elementals and some other cards, it requires a good understanding of what your opponent's options are.
8: FOr a while, I almost ignored this card infavor of earth 10-12, but I've since been using it as a blocker that just won't die, but is a threat to the monster on the other side, kind of like turtle. Is that it's best use, or is it worth going offensive with this guy?
I used to like him less, but against illusion both him and turtle are really strong. If the opponent meditates or has earth low I'll play both! Key is it is aggressive and fast and doesn't require a long game to pay off like earth 10-12. Still a rare drop for me.
10+12: Again, I'm not entirely sure which to go for here. Typically I go for the hydra for it's board control and it's longer lasting life spawn, but the elemental is mana. Which situations would elemental be better?
I don't like Hydra that much at all. But I may be in the minority. I tend to play too slow anyway but hydra works best with Fire 5, or early, or if your sure it won't get tornadoes. In long games its great too.
Holy: 4: I almost always only see judgement be used on turn 2/3 to heal my opponent's mana producer and kill mine, or just kill mine. This just doesn't seem worth it to me, 4 special mana to kill the mana generator and possibly one of your own guys? And it's pretty easy to anticipate, and, when I remember I'm playing agaiinst a holy player, I'll typically just play a golem in anticipation of it. It just seems like there are better uses for this card, though I admit I rarely cast it myself.
Often a bad play, but its not all about mana conversion. Sometimes this makes sense if it means pumping enough mana to get a high cost down that will dominate the board for awhile before it can be dealt with. Like getting a hydra early if you have fire 5 and air 10.
6: When playing holy, my opponents always anticipate this and never go past 3 monsters. IS it worth casting just for 12 damage when you don't have judgement?
If you know your opponent will only play 3 monsters, force him to have to play more. Apply more pressure. You should be leading your opponent towards the traps you have.
Death:
4: WHen is it a good idea to go for this cheap yet beefy guy? I typically use him on Air/earth 1s early in the game, or on a fire wall that my opponent just won't kill, or next to water 9.
When the opponent puts something across from him that you want to kill I guess?
Dominator: Oh let's be honest, I just suck with dominator. 5-8 seem straightforward enough to use, but 1-4 just seem tricky. Weakness seems like such a strong spell, and it's always used amazingly against me, but I just never seem to know just when to cast it like my opponents typically do. the goblin and wall I typically just cast hoping they'll be disruptive, and the horror... yeah, I just don't know about him.
When your mental set shifts towards predicting what answers your opponent can have that will hurt you, Dom 1 and 2 are key in stopping him just when he wants to play his trump like a well time stone rain or a game saving water 6.
I do like Dom 4 but I do it more often than I should cause its fun for some reason :p
Chaos:
I've had good luck with Chaos if the draw is right and skipping early chaos cards and dropping a chaos 8 when I can. With backup cards like Earth 2 (almost essential) Earth 4, meditation, and some sweeps or direct damage, you get board stasis for free. Otherwise, I can't help with Chaos. I don't know how to play mid value chaos (4-7).
Illusion:
Illusion is my worst class and worst to play against. Go figure.
Demonology:
3: Is it worth casting this if you'll only get 0-2 mana off it?
Again, change the question. What is it you need to remove and why do you need to remove it. Against some creatures this totally makes sense.
8: How do you best utilize it's on death trigger?
Long games. Otherwise, play something else.
Beast mastery:
Sorcery:
4: I more or less just use sacrifice turn 2/3 or on a fire wall my opponent won't kill for me, or to recuperate late game when low on mana. Am I using it right, or is there more to this card?
The turn wasted is bad, but if you can drop an early card that can't be answered, you can easily win. I recently had a game where opponent did this and next turn would have been 11 water mana (I had water 12 and 10 in hand). If he dropped water 11, I would have taken 3-4 turns to kill him and could not have applied enough life pressure. I figured game over on turn 3. Turns out his highest water card was 9, and he didn't have any answers. I won the game easily. So it critically depends on what you can put down and how the opponent can respond.
So my over-arching advice.
1) Think less about cost and value and more about what can I do to put the opponent in a position in which he won't be able to respond to a card well and I'll leverage a critical advantage
2) Be aware of how not to let this happen to you
3) As a general example of this, know what you can do to speed up and slow the game down, and know when you do and don't want to do this.
Modified by Fail on 2010-07-23 01:34:07 | Zannoland | 2010-07-23 03:52:42 |
Fire 12: Use in conjunction with chain lightning and major direct damage spells. Without Chain Lightning, Dragon is weak. Beware of Tornado. Water 8, Earth 7: Both of these cards are very strong in conjunction with Control 2. With Water 8 you can take blows while opening weakness, then wipe the board, and you're far up in mana. With Earth 7, you get up slots quickly and can cast weakness without taking any damage at all. Your control record is poor, and it is likely these two cards are one of the holes in your strategy. It is not worth playing if you only get one spider, because you play Earth 7 when you need to get up in slots.
Earth 3: Yes. This strategy is almost worth opening for two reasons: first, there is a possibility your opponent will have no counters in hand, then you win the game outright. Second, even if the opponent does have a counter in hand, this strategy can be very deadly as a leadup into astral guard - opponent dumps stone rain, inferno, etc, and leaves the opponent with no options to counter astral or mind master.
Air 9, Earth 12: You need to time these creatures so that their attack is what kills the opposing creature, so that your other creature can hit the opponent directly. If Tornado is not a threat, Earth 12 will never realistically leave the board before the game ends.
Death 4: This card is very good in conjunction with cards that don't seem very good such as Bargul and Troll because it has so much HP that it can survive all 3 global destruction spells, and therefore covers the main weakness of midtier cards. You can quickly overwhelm the board with mid tier creatures, and put your opponent in a life pin as if you were playing illusion. If you have Tornado in hand, Keeper of Death is better, but it far from useless.
Death 8: The lowest amount of mana you should cast this creature on is 10, unless for some reason you will die unless you drop it. Occasionally you will get into a situation in which you will do more damage than if you waited until 10, because the damage will kill creatures immediately and let your guys get attacks in. This is probably not the answer you wanted. If the opponent drops Elf Hermit and you have Flame Wave, consider using your Death mana on 5/6.
Other cards are more straightforward in their use or have already been covered, but I didn't think I've seen any good answers for those ones.
I suppose I should also mention Mech 2, Fire 4, and Air 1 are bad cards that have nothing but a long list of token uses, and you should only use them if you have an overwhelmingly good reason to do so. Modified by Zannoland on 2010-07-23 04:00:46 This is all pretty useful information, so thanks a lot for the assist. Hopefully I'll actually learn something from it, but we'll see.
A few more questions:
I typically value specialty mana as about 1.5 normal mana, is that about right?
I almost always seem to be leading with my mana generator turn 1 if I go first, unless I have chaos 1/2 or demon 1, or water 3 and decent fire mana and stuff to accelerate into. Are there any other decent-good turn 1 plays I'm missing?
Again, thanks for the help, now to go play some more and apply theory to practice. | Plynx103 | 2010-07-23 12:14:03 |
I value specialty mana as 2 normal mana. If you look at ancient witch, he costs 6 special mana and decreases 2 special mana and 8 regular mana. Since he takes away 2 special mana, its like he costs 4 special to take away 8 regular mana -----> 1:2. Also, you get a free creature. One might argue that you don't alway get the full mana, but you choose when to drop the witch, so you can... Also, if you look at holy 5, its 5 special to get 8 regular mana and you heal 12. Healing 12 is similar to nature ritual, but instead of healing a creature you get four extra life, and nature ritual costs 2 mana. Hence, you get 10 mana for 5 special. Whether to drop a mana generator depends alot on what other options you have, what you're opponent will do, and what you are going for. It's always a good move, but sometimes there are better. Some other good options are: -goblin berserker first slot, goblin berserker last slot, ice golem/turtle 2nd or 5th slot -Forest sprite first 2 slots, minautor, golems (bring them out in any order) -weaknesses and acid rain -goblin berserker goblin berserker acid rain -meditation then turtle/minautor/troll/lightning cloud/spider -monk monk acid rain holy 5 -overtime overtime then acid rain/ mech 5 -> board clear/ mech 6 -merfolk apostate/meditate/sorc 4/ geddon/elementals Modified by Plynx103 on 2010-07-23 13:04:18 I value specialty mana as 2 normal mana. If you look at ancient witch, he costs 6 special mana and decreases 2 special mana and 8 regular mana. Since he takes away 2 special mana, its like he costs 4 special to take away 8 regular mana -----> 1:2. Also, you get a free creature. One might argue that you don't alway get the full mana, but you choose when to drop the witch, so you can... Also, if you look at holy 5, its 5 special to get 8 regular mana and you heal 12. Healing 12 is similar to nature ritual, but instead of healing a creature you get four extra life, and nature ritual costs 2 mana. Hence, you get 10 mana for 5 special.
Nice post but I don't think the logic of the first part is sound. According to that logic, water mana is worth 3 times other non-house mana since meditation gives you three to one cost. Consider that for holy 5 you are also using a turn which is costly because typically you don't want to waste a turn on 12 health only. I value special about 1.75 or normal.
| Wavelength | 2010-07-23 16:01:13 |
I tend to value Special mana at 1.5-1.75 times regular mana, and Water mana at about 1.25 times other regular mana.
Moreso, I like to get very high in two mana pools if possible. I feel the returns are exponential to an extent; that is, I'd rather have a 2 and a 12 out from any given mana pool as opposed to a 6 and an 8.
| Plynx103 | 2010-07-23 16:49:52 |
...
Nice post but I don't think the logic of the first part is sound. According to that logic, water mana is worth 3 times other non-house mana since meditation gives you three to one cost. Consider that for holy 5 you are also using a turn which is costly because typically you don't want to waste a turn on 12 health only.
I value special about 1.75 or normal.
Meditating you're only trading 1 mana at a time, so it would take many more turns. With ancient witch, not only do u trade 6 mana at once, also you get a creature out there (so you don't lose momentum). I'll give you that holy 5 loses some momentum, but I usually do it after a few elementals are already out and you have nothing to do anyways. Also, it gives you the benefit of scaling mana, like Wavelength mentioned. If you look at individual creatures, its not clear. Chaos 1 is twice as good as elven healer. Mech 4 is not as good as lightning cloud ( a little more than double cost but ok). Cursed fog actually costs more than acid rain, considering opponents mana lost. Energy beast is comparable to troll. Death falcon to merfolk overlord. It's not clear the exact value, but I've always thought its double.
Modified by Plynx103 on 2010-07-23 16:50:50 | Floofy | 2010-07-23 17:11:33 |
chaos 1 twice as good as elven healer? i disagree.... i prefer having 2 elven healer on the board rather than a single chaos 1
Also, making the evaluation of mana based on ancient witch is a bit wrong since its also one the strongest card in the game.....
You also gotta keep in mind with ancient witch: #1 you gotta wait for 6 special mana (which is a bad thing) and #2 your opponement gotta have at least 2 of each which is not always easy....
| Wavelength | 2010-07-23 17:37:48 |
I slightly prefer Troll to Energy Beast. I much prefer Armageddon to HellFire. If Tornado is worth 10 air, I'm not sure Disintegrate would be worth 16. I like Hydra and Master Healer better than any Special 6's in the game. Even Cannon isn't as good. I don't think I'd pay 16 Earth mana for any creature in the game, not even Archangel or Ancient Giant. Okay, maybe I would for Dragon. :)
I really think it's risky to value Special Mana at twice your normal mana.
| Snarky Pants | 2010-07-23 21:10:13 |
...
Nice post but I don't think the logic of the first part is sound. According to that logic, water mana is worth 3 times other non-house mana since meditation gives you three to one cost. Consider that for holy 5 you are also using a turn which is costly because typically you don't want to waste a turn on 12 health only.
I value special about 1.75 or normal.
Similarly, one could say Mech mana is worth INFINITE because you can get 1 for 0 mana.
| Plynx103 | 2010-07-24 00:13:26 |
I think we agree that there's no clear value of special mana to regular mana.. Whatever amount we say is just what we feel it is.
| Floofy | 2010-07-24 00:28:30 |
i don't think its "just what we feel it is". I think we all agree its generally worth more than 1.5 normal mana and less than 2x normal mana. but its hard to find the exact number since it depends on many factors....
| Plynx103 | 2010-07-24 01:10:20 |
The value of it depends more on which special cards you choose to use. If you select good cards to use, it is worth more than if you use any random card.. Like wavelength is comparing all special cards to the best regular cards, so its gonna seem that they are worth less. What if we compare cards like death 4 to bargul ( 2x as much), chaos 2 to spider (3x as much), or holy 3 to pheonix? Maybe I feel its worth 2x as much cuz I use ancient witch a lot, but it depends which cards you use and what you compare it to. Modified by Plynx103 on 2010-07-24 07:33:40 | Chance | 2010-07-24 14:27:10 |
The value of it depends more on which special cards you choose to use. If you select good cards to use, it is worth more than if you use any random card.. Like wavelength is comparing all special cards to the best regular cards, so its gonna seem that they are worth less. What if we compare cards like death 4 to bargul ( 2x as much), chaos 2 to spider (3x as much), or holy 3 to pheonix? Maybe I feel its worth 2x as much cuz I use ancient witch a lot, but it depends which cards you use and what you compare it to. Right, the card in question makes a big difference. For example 12 water mana can clinch an even game more than just about anything else. But dropping four Merfolk Apostate isn't going to do the trick. One Astral Guard will. Having 12 water mana without Astral Guard in your hand is worth dramatically less. Just having the 12 mana does not necessarily grant you some static intrinsic value. To then lump all 'special mana' into the same category is an even greater generalization which loses all noteworthy comparable information.
All this advice has certainly helped a lot. I think I'm more aware of the game state now and I'm at least slightly better at predicting my opponent's moves (especially when it comes to the major removal spells). Is there still room for improvement? Of course, but hey, progress is progress, right? So definitely thanks again for all the help, guys!
Few things to add....
Dragon is good with Holy because of the possibility of getting 4 or 6 -
there are good odds when you're playing Holy that Dragon will be strong.
Dragon and Holy 4 is particularly hard to deal with for an opponent as
Dragon keeps getting rehealed. Standard caveats about Tornado apply.
Dragon's also great with Control 5, but you don't have that as often as
you do.
Holy 4 is incidentally very nice with Ice Golem. Mana producer, Ice
Golem, Holy 4 tends to leave you with board position as well as an alive
mana guy. And as you drop more golems you can Holy 4 away happily.
Water 8 is a good way to punish weak openings, but is vulnerable to Ice
Golems etc. It's also situationally pretty powerful when you can wipe
your opponent's side and leave a couple of your guys standing - they're
down on board position and in a bit of a mana pinch.
Spider can be a very aggressive card, and also works well with Death 4. A
lot of horrible things can be placed across from a 2/11 though. It's at
its best when they're already chasing a board position disadvantage and
in a spot with health.
Chaos 5 is plain bad. Too fragile and only really works in a long
resource battle, if it survives. There are excellent odds that it won't
even disrupt the opponent's plan before they kill you.
Chaos 8 is fine after a board clear, reasonably potent, not as widely
good as some of the other 8s but it has a place if there's little on the
board and health is getting lower.
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