HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-17 04:20:19 |
Since we've just been debating how OP time is, I figure now is as good a time as any to suggest an idea I assume only I will like. I was thinking it would be really fun to have a mono class tournament one month -- i.e., you have to pick one class at the beginning and play only that class for the whole tourney. I know most people feel like playing random is a better representation of skill and some feel Time is too broken for this format to be valid, but I also think it would be fun to see a tournament where people enter as underdog classes and find out if anyone can rise through even at a disadvantage. I've sometimes thought of it because I'm used to competitive fighting game tournaments where most people have a main character they play most matchups with, even if the character they've chosen is low tier, and it is always very exciting to see people who do well with low tier characters. So I thought I'd throw this out there and see if anyone likes the idea besides me.... come on, maybe one person? mamoulian | 2015-04-17 07:48:38 |
fun fun fun don't care about time either, bring it on! hermit power!
my gobos will pillage your village! is it going to be on fast duels?
mamoulian | 2015-04-17 11:20:20 |
we live inna forest!
CyberneticPony | 2015-04-17 11:33:33 |
I actually like this idea. I know which class I'd play! PS. It's Sorcerer. Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-04-17 11:34:00 Jeronimo | 2015-04-17 12:43:35 |
Mechanician HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-17 13:31:18 |
Well that's a better response than I expected! I'd even enter as Illusion if we had one, although I'm rusty as hell.
ShadowofMordor | 2015-04-17 15:04:37 |
That would lead to quite some matches vs the very same classes. A vs A match is definitely dependent of what u draw and what the opponent doesn't. Personally I don't like it for this very probable chances. SoM
Krugopryad | 2015-04-17 15:08:52 |
I would choose Time for sure. The most difficult class to use that requires a lot of skill, calculations and deep analyzing.
Sinist | 2015-04-17 15:26:09 |
More so than control, huh?
CyberneticPony | 2015-04-17 15:45:16 |
I would choose Time for sure. The most difficult class to use that requires a lot of skill, calculations and deep analyzing. I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm. EDIT: Any ideas for when to host this? Maybe this Sunday? Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-04-17 17:00:18 HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-17 17:04:14 |
More so than control, huh? He's joking.
HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-17 17:09:02 |
EDIT: Any ideas for when to host this? Maybe this Sunday?
I was mainly proposing it as a suggestion for one of the monthly tournaments that cooler runs, but if he doesn't want to do it and enough people are interested a player run tournament could be interesting as well. However I don't think I would be the person to organize it.
HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-17 17:19:16 |
On a serious note regarding time though, one thing I do think would be interesting about this would be to see how mono time players perform in the tournament. Would the top 8 be all time, or would it end up being a mix of classes? It would be a different kind of data to look at the balance question with.
Sinist | 2015-04-17 17:28:33 |
... He's joking.
Oh, forgot he hates this class... Sinist | 2015-04-17 17:30:10 |
On a serious note regarding time though, one thing I do think would be interesting about this would be to see how mono time players perform in the tournament. Would the top 8 be all time, or would it end up being a mix of classes? It would be a different kind of data to look at the balance question with. By the way, there are annual monoclass tournaments (Magic Fidelity) conducted by Prospectro. Time teams were either winners or very close to it everytime they took part Wavelength | 2015-04-18 07:00:58 |
I think it would be fun to do once, as a gimmick. But the serious imbalance in certain matchups (like Necro vs. Demon or Illusion vs. Beast) could make the later rounds and playoffs too predictable.
I think it would be fun to do once, as a gimmick. But the serious imbalance in certain matchups (like Necro vs. Demon or Illusion vs. Beast) could make the later rounds and playoffs too predictable.
but also very amusing when the underdog comes out on top!
Modified by filip on 2015-04-18 10:42:21
I really like the idea of a monoclass tournament. I have never given class matchup much thought: What would you play if you expected the majority of players to play Time or Control (the two strongest classes, in my opinion).
@wavelength: Could you explain why you think that Necro vs. Demon and Illusion vs. Beast are imbalanced? The elephant can hurt illusion a lot, i guess, but apart from that? Or is it just what the matchup stats say?
I agree what Jeronima recently said, btw: The stats would reflect the strengths of the classes much more if only matchups of players >= level 20 would count. Control, for example, is a very strong class, but one has to possess a certain level of skill in order to use its strength effectively. So a level 10 player probaly would use only 50% of the classes potentials, while at the same time he would probably use 80% of the potentials of other classes (sorry for my english, i am german).
I finally cracked level 30 ;-) It was about time after the million games i played.
The above post was from me, MikeBnDe. For some reason i cannot post with my real name even though i am logged in, sorry.
Sinist | 2015-04-18 18:01:15 |
Elephant and hamster. block illusion two only good strategies - health rush or board control Demons double life, nuff said
mamoulian | 2015-04-18 19:22:00 |
The above post was from me, MikeBnDe. For some reason i cannot post with my real name even though i am logged in, sorry. Kudos on the lvl 30 you're a great player. (: MikeBnDe | 2015-04-19 06:53:17 |
@mamoulian: Thanks alot :-)
So anyone in the mood to reply to my question: Which class would
you choose against Control and why? And which class would you
chosse against Time and why? And which class would you
chosse if 50% of the players in the tournament played time and 50% played control?
(Those two are my favorite classes - even though i have no idea how to
play time correctly) Modified by MikeBnDe on 2015-04-19 06:57:41 srbhkshk | 2015-04-19 09:55:32 |
Against control - forest/golem, free creatures.
Against time - maybe mech, to break the board, but not really sure.
Against both, beast, cos i like the class :P
Modified by srbhkshk on 2015-04-19 09:57:54 MikeBnDe | 2015-04-19 12:12:55 |
I don't know about golem against time. t3 seems pretty brutal against golem. But i haven't payed much attention to class match ups, so maybe i am wrong. Mech against time makes sense i guess, the overall consensus here seems to be that to beat time, presence is key and mech can establish that.
MikeBnDe | 2015-04-21 09:26:12 |
So, will a one class tournament take place? i really like the idea. Can't we ask Cooler to organize/host one in addition to the 'normal' tournaments?
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2015-04-21 09:26:34
of course we can! watch me: hey cooler will you do this? but i think the only way it could be done would be in place of a normal tournament (not in addition to it) HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-21 14:27:49 |
Yeah, making it additional is probably a bit too much... if cooler wants to do one as the regular tournament I think it would be fun but maybe not enough people would like the idea.
Cooler | 2015-04-22 10:31:53 |
of course we can! watch me: hey cooler will you do this? What is required from my side?
What is required from my side?
your approval i guess
just organize the monthly tournament as usual, but announce in the rules that each player has to use one class only for the whole tournament
Modified by filip on 2015-04-22 17:10:58 Wavelength | 2015-04-23 08:20:31 |
@wavelength: Could you explain why you think that Necro vs. Demon and Illusion vs. Beast are imbalanced? The elephant can hurt illusion a lot, i guess, but apart from that? Or is it just what the matchup stats say?
Necro vs. Demon: Most of Necro's cards rely on creature destruction (often mutual destruction). Demon has four cards (1, 4, 5, 7) that directly counter creature destruction by providing some benefit when it dies. Illusion vs. Beast: Like Sinist said, White Elephant is a devastating counter to one of Illusion's greatest strategic weapons (direct damage life pressure) and the Hamster's extremely cheap creature healing is a pretty good counter to Illusion's slot break cards (1, 6, and 8). Additionally, Basilisk is one of the three best counters in the game to Phantom Warrior (E3 and E12 being the other two). These are just examples; there are several other class imbalances. To be clear, I don't think that most of the class imbalances are problematic in themselves in a game like Spectromancer (as long as there are only one or two for any given class); the problems come when you're forced to play a class multiple times against an opponent who is playing a class you're weak against. With that being said I still think the tourney is a good idea to do once just for the lolz.
MikeBnDe | 2015-04-23 12:10:46 |
@WL: Good points. There would be a way to lessen these kind of imbalances without harming the whole balance: We have got bans of card combos WITHIN a class, for example F5+E3 if i remember correctly. So why not, in addition to these kind of bans, ban cards in certain matchups. For example, ban Elephant from the cardpool of Beast when it is matched against Illusion. i agree, facing an Elephant when playing illusion sounds ridiculously unfair, especiall when combined with hamster (at least in theory). This kind of bans would not affect the other classes, which is a good thing. It would ruin the information game of course, but this is a price worth paying i think. Fixing Demon vs Necro is more difficult, but i don't think that this imbalance is too broken. Modified by MikeBnDe on 2015-04-23 12:30:25 Sinist | 2015-04-23 13:32:05 |
banning cards vs certain classes is very bad idea. It both limits strategical options and makes player too predictable. Better nerf elephant a bit. Besides, it is not like most other classes dont struggle with beast 6 + beast 1 (+water 6 or earth 11) combo
Cooler | 2015-04-23 14:31:04 |
your approval i guess just organize the monthly tournament as usual, but announce in the rules that each player has to use one class only for the whole tournament
OK, no problem! :) But the next tournament is gonna be Blitz - is it suitable for mono-class or it's better to wait for a regular one?
And Battleground channel can't be used for that, so we should play in ProSpectro channel. Modified by Cooler on 2015-04-23 14:33:54 mamoulian | 2015-04-23 14:54:00 |
... OK, no problem! :) But the next tournament is gonna be Blitz - is it suitable for mono-class or it's better to wait for a regular one?And Battleground channel can't be used for that, so we should play in ProSpectro channel.
I think Blitz is OK. HeadphonesGirl | 2015-04-23 15:03:04 |
I have a preference for regular games so my vote would be to wait for a non blitz tournament, but I'm sure it would be interesting to try either way.
Tendou | 2015-04-23 16:05:05 |
... I think Blitz is OK.
I don't think it is :DDD!
my gobos want blitz!
MikeBnDe | 2015-04-23 18:25:35 |
banning cards vs certain classes is very bad idea. It both limits strategical options and makes player too predictable. Better nerf elephant a bit. Besides, it is not like most other classes dont struggle with beast 6 + beast 1 (+water 6 or earth 11) combo
Well, better limited strategical options than an auto-loss.
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2015-04-23 18:29:28 Sinist | 2015-04-23 18:29:55 |
autoloss? there is almost never such thing as autoloss
Tendou | 2015-04-23 18:31:40 |
autoloss? there is almost never such thing as autoloss New debate on the horizon, don't keep things shy boys!! let your arguments flow :DDD MikeBnDe | 2015-04-23 19:44:01 |
@Tendou: nah, not in the mood ;-)
Jeronimo | 2015-04-23 23:28:12 |
Vote for normal duel. Blitz take out one of most interesting features in face to face confrontation... the dialogue.
You want to make a comment for bluffing or praise a move with words... but short timer doesn't let you do that and play consistent. You only have time to try to guess his/her cards and foresee a couple turns.
This tournament could have a "lot of inchat dialogue", since when a predestined match-up occurs (you know my class and I yours), we start duels with an amount of prejudices.
During those (X class vs X class) duels, both players could give their opinions respect current match-ups while playing. With surprises and conclusions near the end... good dialogue needs normal duels format.
Modified by Jeronimo on 2015-04-23 23:39:27
choosing blitz could mitigate the potential balance issues between classes. when having limited time to think, it is not so easy for someone to take advantage of a good matchup. so people would have better chances to win in one of the bad matchups of their class mamoulian | 2015-04-24 09:05:39 |
Rabbits don't talk.
SpelledWol | 2015-04-25 00:12:29 |
Rabbits don't talk. Yes they do
heey say hello to wol from me!
Wavelength | 2015-04-25 03:41:02 |
Jeronimo and Filip both make interesting points. I would lean toward combining Mono-class with Blitz since most people should be able to play their "best class" like it's second nature (that is, without needing to think too long).
mamoulian | 2015-04-25 05:22:06 |
Jeronimo and Filip both make interesting points. I would lean toward combining Mono-class with Blitz since most people should be able to play their "best class" like it's second nature (that is, without needing to think too long). Yes, that and what filip said is why I think blitz is OK, however I prefer normal games too. Also don't want to wait another month. :) CyberneticPony | 2015-04-25 19:33:02 |
I actually wouldn't mind a mono-class blitz tournament. I don't like regular blitz tournaments anyway!
Sinist | 2015-04-25 21:38:44 |
mono class blitz... So everyone will play time. Unless it gets banned. Not fond of any of two alternatives
SpelledWol | 2015-04-25 23:24:53 |
heey say hello to wol from me! he said hi
MikeBnDe | 2015-04-27 19:21:00 |
mono class blitz... So everyone will play time. Unless it gets banned. Not fond of any of two alternatives If you think everyone will play time, play Goblins (best winrate against time). And so the metagame begins... Question: In a mirror match, can the players have the same special card? I think not, but i never paid close attention to it. EDIT: Looking at the stats i realize that Time has a >50% winrate against each class other than goblin (level >25 players). Wow. And control's win rate is weaker than i thought. Modified by MikeBnDe on 2015-04-27 19:31:02 CyberneticPony | 2015-04-27 19:54:21 |
... If you think everyone will play time, play Goblins (best winrate against time). And so the metagame begins...
Question: In a mirror match, can the players have the same special card? I think not, but i never paid close attention to it.
EDIT: Looking at the stats i realize that Time has a >50% winrate against each class other than goblin (level >25 players). Wow. And control's win rate is weaker than i thought.
They cannot have the same special card in a mirror.
MikeBnDe | 2015-04-27 20:24:35 |
... They cannot have the same special card in a mirror.
Ok, thanks. Interestingly when holy plays spirti, both can have H4/S4
Sinist | 2015-04-27 20:45:10 |
... Ok, thanks. Interestingly when holy plays spirti, both can have H4/S4
which of two angels is heretic, thats the question
Cooler | 2015-04-28 06:10:45 |
OK, I finally decided to combine the upcoming blitz tournament with mono-class rule. Let's see what it will like :)
mamoulian | 2015-04-28 09:50:09 |
OK, I finally decided to combine the upcoming blitz tournament with mono-class rule. Let's see what it will like :) Yaaay, this Sunday? Cooler | 2015-04-28 13:43:03 |
Yaaay, this Sunday?
Yes! :)
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