| Echodork | 2009-03-24 18:01:54 |
SPECTROMANCER
Welcome to Spectromancer!
This guide is designed to explain the basics of Spectromancer, talk about how the game is played, provide a quick run-down of the cards, and discuss some basic strategies for play. By the end of this guide, you will be ready to fire up the game client and jump right into online play.
About Spectromancer
Spectromancer was created by Alexey Stankevich (creator of Astral Tournament and Astral Masters), Richard Garfield (the man behind RoboRally, Magic: the Gathering, and many other collectible card games), and Skaff Elias (designer of Magic: the Gatheringâs Ice Age expansion, as well as the Harry Potter trading card game).
Spectromancer is distributed by Three Donkeys, and can be downloaded from www.spectromancer.com. The demo version is free to download and play, but only allows access to the Holy house of magic. The full version currently costs $19.95, and unlocks the other five houses.
Spectromancer Basics
Spectromancer shares many elements of collectible card games (particularly Magic) that you may be familiar with. Spectromancer cards are divided into four elements: Fire, Water, Air, and Earth. There are twelve cards in each element, numbered 1 through 12 based on their casting cost. In addition, there are six âhousesâ of magic: Holy, Death, Illusion, Control, Mechanics, and Chaos. Each house has eight cards, also numbered 1 through 8 based on casting cost.
Each player is given a deck of cards to play with at the start of each game. Prior to the start of the game, each player picks one of the six houses to include in his deck. You are then randomly dealt four cards from each element, plus four cards from your selected house. These cards stay with you for the entire game, and you can use each card as many times as you like (provided you have the mana to use them).
You begin the game with 60 life points, 3-6 mana points in each element, and 2 mana points in your chosen house. There is no limit to how much life or mana you can stockpile over the course of the game (your creatures can never gain more hit points than the maximum life total displayed on the card, however).
A note about card names. As I mentioned, there are twelve cards in each element which cost from 1 to 12 mana. Each casting cost is represented by exactly one card, so you may see people referring to cards by their casting cost rather than the card name. For example, in the screenshot below, the opponent has a Merfolk Elder (Water 5), and the player has a Fire Priest (Fire 3) and Giant Spider (Earth 7) on the board. The highlighted card is Griffin (Air 3). When discussing creatures, youâll also see people talk about their attack and life values using a slash. To use the Griffin as an example, the Griffin is a 3/15 creature. Its attack value is 3, and its maximum life total is 15.
Playing Spectromancer
Hereâs a screenshot of the duel screen: http://www.spectromancer.com/img/screens/combat.jpg
At the top of the screen is your opponentâs portrait, name, life total, and mana pools. In the top center portion of the screen is the creature staging area, with your opponentâs creatures in the top row and your creatures in the bottom row. On the bottom half of the screen, you can see your portrait, life total, mana pools, and the cards in your deck. Between the two portraits, there is a button to skip your turn, and a button to see the cards your opponent has played. The left center of the screen is a large-size explanation of the card your mouse is pointing to, and the bottom left box is the game message and chat box.
Take a look at the cards in the screenshot. The number in the top right box is the casting cost of the card. Creature cards will also have two numbers on the bottom of the card, an attack value on the left, and a maximum life total on the right. Some cards (such as the Griffin highlighted in the example) have additional effects. This Griffin automatically deals 5 damage to your opponent if you have at least 5 Air mana when you play it.
Notice in the screenshot that all of the cards which are playable on this turn are lit up. If a card is darkened, it means that you either donât have the mana to use it, or you donât have a valid target for the spell.
At the start of your turn, you will gain 1 point of mana in all five of your mana pools. You then select one card from your deck to use. If you select a creature card, youâll be prompted to place it in any of the available creature slots at the top of the screen. If you choose a card that requires a target (such as Natureâs Ritual, which heals one of your creatures for 8 points and increases your life by 8), you will be prompted to select a target. After youâve cast your one spell for the turn, each of your creatures will attack. If the space opposite your creature is empty, your creature will hit the opponent and deduct its attack value from the opponentâs life total. If the space opposite your creature is occupied by another creature, it will deduct its attack value from the opposing creatureâs life total. Creatures will always attack from left to right.
After you cast a spell and all of your creatures attack, your turn ends and your opponents turn begins. Turns alternate until one playerâs life total is reduced to zero or lower.
Why Canât I Build My Own Deck?
Good question, and one that everyone asks. One of the problems that collectible card games have is the prevalence of âtournament decks.â When you create a bunch of cards, players will inevitably find the cards and combinations of cards they like the best, and theyâll make their favorite decks from them. As time goes on and as more and more games are played, the players will eventually figure out what the two or three best decks are, and everyone will start using those decks. Eventually, the game gets boring because everyone either uses the best decks⦠or they lose.
Spectromancer gives each player a random deck at the start of every game. This ensures that there is no âbest deck,â and that each game of Spectromancer is something new and different. You canât play the same way every game, because you never know what cards youâre going to be dealt. Over time, youâll learn how to look at the cards youâre given and identify the best strategy for playing them.
The Six Houses of Magic
Hereâs a quick breakdown of the six houses of magic, and the themes that each house represents:
Holy: Holy cards are based on healing and protection. Most Holy cards heal you or your creatures, reduce the damage your creatures take, or grant you bonus mana. The Archangel (Holy 8) is an 11/50 creature that fully heals ALL of your other creatures when he is played.
Death: Death is based on damage and destruction. There are lots of Death cards which deal damage to creatures, and there are several ways to sacrifice your own creatures to take down your opponent. Greater Demon (Death 8) is a 10/60 creature that hits every enemy creature for damage equal to your Fire mana total when he is played.
Illusion: Illusion magic is all about using your opponentâs own creatures against him. There are ways to reflect damage, and you can make your opponentâs creatures hit the opponent or themselves. Hypnotist (Illusion 8) is a 6/40 creature that hits the opponent and all of his creatures for 6 damage when he is played, and he also grants you +1 bonus Illusion mana each turn.
Control: Control is all about denying your opponent his resources. There are ways to reduce your opponentâs mana totals, make his spells cost more, and make his creatures damage themselves. Ancient Giant (Control 8) is an 11/50 creature that forces your opponent to skip his next turn.
Mechanics: Mechanics is all about putting out powerful creatures that damage your opponentâs creatures. Rifleman hits each creature your opponent plays, while Cannon hits the opponentâs strongest creature each turn. Steam Tank (Mech 8) is an 8/42 creature that hits all of the opponentâs creatures for 12 damage when it is played.
Chaos: Chaos magic relies on randomness and chance. There are creatures which heal you or damage your opponent for a random amount, a damage spell that hits a random target, and ways to gain mana or rob your opponent of mana from a random school. Insanian Lord (Chaos 8) is an 8/48 creature who gives you a free 4/15 creature in a random creature slot each turn.
Basic Strategy and Tips
The goal of Spectromancer is to kill your opponent by reducing his life total to 0. In order to accomplish that, youâre going to need to play creatures⦠lots and lots of creatures. Creature combat forms the backbone of Spectromancer, so youâll want to get familiar with the creatures that are available to you and how to use them best. Generally speaking, the more expensive a creature is to play, the more powerful it will be. Dragon (Fire 12) is a 10/40 creature, and heâs a lot scarier than Goblin Berserker (Fire 1) who is 4/16.
Some creatures have relatively low attack and life totals, but provide useful effects. Astral Guard (Water 12) is extremely weak, at 1/16. However, as long as you have Astral Guard on the board, your opponent gains one less point of mana in each element every turn. That means that your opponent will stop gaining mana entirely unless he plays a creature that generates bonus mana or kills your Astral Guard. Astral Guard isnât much of an attacker, but heâs one of the most powerful creatures in the game!
Each of the four elements has an Elemental creature. Elementals typically have very high life totals, and their attack value is equal to your current mana total in their element. So if you have 5 Fire mana, your Fire Elemental will have an attack value of 5. Elementals also give you +1 bonus point of mana in their element every turn. Elementals are very useful creatures, and they can get very strong if you build up a big mana pool.
House mana is more valuable than elemental mana. The cards in your house school of magic are almost always cheaper and more powerful than whatâs available from elemental cards. Spend your house mana very wisely.
Donât let your opponent build up more creatures than you. If your opponent plays a lot of creatures and you spend your turns casting spells instead, you might find yourself overwhelmed very quickly.
Lots of cards can damage all of your opponentâs creatures at the same time (Fire 2, Fire 6, and Air 9 to name a few). Using these spells can help you kill off your opponentâs creatures before they can kill your own.
There are several cards which damage all the creatures on the board (Fire 11, Water 8, and Earth 9). Using one of these cards when your opponent has more creatures than you can be a really good idea. We like to call these âboard clearers.â
Never skip your turn if you can help it. You only get to cast one spell per turn, so make every turn count!
Try to look ahead to see which expensive cards you will want to cast in the future, and then save mana from those elements. If you really want to play a Hydra (Earth 12), then donât spend your first couple turns casting out weak Earth creatures. As a general rule, I often like to spend my first couple turns casting creatures from three elements, while I save up for something big from the other two.
Super Extra Bonus Hint
Never play Elvish Healer (Earth 1) on the first turn. Never! There are so many better things you could be doing. | Echodork | 2009-03-24 18:02:13 |
Advanced Tips - Deck Construction
Play enough games, and youâll notice that the card distribution in your deck isnât COMPLETELY random. There are a couple rules that govern which cards youâre eligible to get in your deck:
You will get one and only one of the following three mana producing creatures: Fire Priest (Fire 3), Merfolk Elder (Water 5), and Elvish Priest (Earth 5). You will also start with enough mana to cast the mana producer you get on your first turn.
You and your opponent will always have different cards. If you have a card, your opponent will NOT. This is true even when you both pick the same house of magic⦠you will have 4 of the 8 house cards, and your opponent will have the other 4. Knowing this can help you figure out what your opponent has in his deck before the game even starts.
Cards are arranged in rows based on their casting cost. For the four elemental schools, the first row can have cards that cost 1-3 mana. The second row can be 3-7, third row 5-10 (and very rarely 11), fourth row 9-12. The house cards are broken down 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8.
Your deck will always have one card in each row for each element, and you will never have duplicate cards.
Cheaper cards are always closer to the top of the deck sheet.
You will always have at least one creature and one spell in your four elemental schools. I canât promise any more than that, Iâve definitely had draws with 15 creatures and one crappy damage spell :)
These rules can help you guess what your opponent has in his deck. For example, say you have Armageddon (Fire 11) in your deck. Your opponent plays a Fire Elemental (Fire 10), and when you look at his deck sheet, you see that Fire Elemental is in his third row. Bingo, you know that he has Dragon in his fourth Fire row, because he canât have Armageddon and thereâs nothing else that could be in that spot.
Advanced Tips - Mana Advantage
One of the critical concepts in Spectromancer is that of mana advantage. Mana advantage means having more mana at your disposal than your opponent. If you have more mana than your opponent, you can cast bigger creatures, and you are more likely to ultimately win the game. There are several ways to gain mana advantage through the course of a game:
Use your spells as efficiently as possible. If your opponent only has one creature with 4 life on the board, you want to use a cheap spell like Fire Wall (Fire 2) or Call to Thunder (Air 3) to kill it rather than using Inferno (Fire 9) or Chain Lightning (Air 9). Generally speaking, damage spells are used most effectively when they allow you to kill creatures that cost more than the damage spell itself. In other words, if your Flame Wave (Fire 6) doesnât allow you to kill at least 6 mana worth of creatures, you may want to consider not casting it.
When using board clearers, add the cost of the spell to the mana cost of your own creatures that will die. If your Stone Rain (Earth 9) will kill 13 mana worth of your opponentâs creatures and 10 mana worth of yours, itâs probably a bad idea unless you absolutely need to do it to survive.
Use the mana-producing creatures, but only play them when you know they will survive for a couple turns. Itâs silly to play a Fire Priest (Fire 3) across from your opponentâs Dragon⦠heâll die before he gives you enough mana to pay for his own casting cost. Playing a mana-producer on the first turn is often a strong play.
Cards like Meditation (Water 1) and Holy 5 immediately grant you more mana than they cost, and can help you build up a mana advantage. However, donât overuse these cards if it means your opponent will crush you with his creatures.
Likewise, cards like Weakness (Control 2) and Ancient Witch (Control 6) can drain your opponentâs mana pools. These cards also help you gain mana advantage, not by boosting your own mana totals, but by reducing the opponentâs.
Creatures that have helpful effects can be very mana efficient. If youâre getting low on life, casting Faerie Sage (Air 4) can provide you with a strong blocker while boosting your life total at the same time.
Finally, remember that mana advantage isnât everything. Having more mana in your mana pool doesnât help if your opponent Lightning Bolts you to death before you get a chance to spend it. | Echodork | 2009-03-24 18:02:29 |
Reserving this post in case they ever enable the Edit feature :)
| Echodork | 2009-03-24 18:09:36 |
Reserving one more in case I ever get around to doing a card-by-card breakdown.
| milskidasith | 2009-03-24 20:46:21 |
One tip you should add: Death seems to be soft banned at high levels of play.
| Echodork | 2009-03-24 23:15:43 |
That's a good point, although I don't want to discourage any newbies from learning how to play all six houses.
The explanation - Drain Souls (Death 7) kills every creature on the board and gives the caster +2 life per creature destroyed. This often leads to very slow, very cautious games where neither player puts out any large attacking creatures. Games against Death decks can take a very long time, so several top-level (11+) players have an informal agreement to not play Death against each other until Drain Souls is tweaked.
I very often go Random when I play, and I've never had anyone get mad or say anything to me when Death comes up. "You will always have at least one creature and one spell in your four elemental schools. I canât promise any more than that, Iâve definitely had draws with 15 creatures and one crappy damage spell :)"
This is definitely wrong. I've drawn all spells in the air deck before (call to thunder, lightning bolt, chain lightning, tornado). I've also very rarely drawn 1-2 in elemental decks, about the same frequency as 11-12. I've also very rarely drawn 5-6 in the special deck (the two i can recall were divine intervention and wrath of god, and both chaos mana guys). For a long time I thought the only guarantee was that you couldn't draw 11-12 but even that's broken down.
| Echodork | 2009-03-25 13:53:41 |
Oops, I should reword that... I meant that you'll get at least one creature and at least one spell between all four of your elemental schools. In other words, between Fire, Water, Air, and Earth, you'll never get 16 creatures and no spells.
When they enable the post editing feature, I'll fix that. Thanks for the clarification.
I've never ever drawn 5&6 in the special deck... I'll need a screenshot from someone to verify that's possible. I didn't think 11&12 was possible either, but *I* got Armageddon and Dragon in the same game just this past weekend.
I also meant to include something about creatures not being able to attack on the turn they are cast. You can't get both 5 and 6; it simply isn't possible.
11 and 12 is possible, but very rare because of how it figures out which cards each player gets (which I'm not entirely sure of). | garcia1000 | 2009-03-25 17:34:04 |
A+ would read again
| IIZannoII | 2009-03-25 22:40:38 |
Oops, I should reword that... I meant that you'll get at least one creature and at least one spell between all four of your elemental schools. In other words, between Fire, Water, Air, and Earth, you'll never get 16 creatures and no spells. When they enable the post editing feature, I'll fix that. Thanks for the clarification. I've never ever drawn 5&6 in the special deck... I'll need a screenshot from someone to verify that's possible. I didn't think 11&12 was possible either, but *I* got Armageddon and Dragon in the same game just this past weekend. I also meant to include something about creatures not being able to attack on the turn they are cast.
It's only happened twice out of the hundreds of games I've played, so it's probably as common as drawing 1+2 and 11+12 in elements. | zhupons | 2009-04-07 12:48:09 |
About the rules...
you have three creatures in each element that cost 1-3; 4-8; 9-11, the last one is totally random you can have for example, goblin berserker and wall of fire in one draw!
Also fire 5+ earth 3 if forbidden, water 11 and 12; earth 11 and 12 is also not allowed. (fire and air I have never seen them together but I don't now if they are allowed or not, tought I don't believe they are.
Another rule you will allways have at least one healing card in your deck. It may be only elvish healer but you will ALLWAYS have one. | IIZannoII | 2009-04-07 15:50:58 |
About the rules... you have three creatures in each element that cost 1-3; 4-8; 9-11, the last one is totally random you can have for example, goblin berserker and wall of fire in one draw! Also fire 5+ earth 3 if forbidden, water 11 and 12; earth 11 and 12 is also not allowed. (fire and air I have never seen them together but I don't now if they are allowed or not, tought I don't believe they are. Another rule you will allways have at least one healing card in your deck. It may be only elvish healer but you will ALLWAYS have one.
i've drawn both water 11 and 12 and earth 11 and 12 before, so this is also definitely wrong. | IIZannoII | 2009-04-07 15:51:36 |
come to think of it i have also played games where i had absolutely no heal cards | Forgin | 2009-04-07 16:14:04 |
I'm playing a game with water 11 and 12 right now.
The game before this I only had Water Elemental as healing :(
| zhupons | 2009-04-07 17:34:08 |
I'm not sure of water 11 and 12, I have never seen anyone with the 2 of them neither had them, but I am defenitly sure of the healing cards...
You must allways have at least one healing card.
I was almost sure about earth and water 11 and 12... oh well! | IIZannoII | 2009-04-07 18:09:04 |
I'm not sure of water 11 and 12, I have never seen anyone with the 2 of them neither had them, but I am defenitly sure of the healing cards... You must allways have at least one healing card. I was almost sure about earth and water 11 and 12... oh well!
i have played games where i definitely have not drawn any healing cards at all. many people have, you might want to pay closer attention there. the only guarantee is that you get a mana grower. | LazerBrain | 2009-04-07 20:48:15 |
water elemental and divine intervention both count as healing cards.... It was explicitly stated by the developer that you got one back on the beta boards, but it could've changed since then, or they could be counting ice guard or something weird like that.
| zhupons | 2009-04-07 21:44:43 |
... i have played games where i definitely have not drawn any healing cards at all. many people have, you might want to pay closer attention there. the only guarantee is that you get a mana grower.
If you REALLy did than I advise you to report it to the developpers because it is a bug...
I allways have one healling card in you hand. | FinalSlayer | 2009-04-07 22:39:28 |
Ice Guard, Chaos 1, Holy 5, Earth 11, Earth 1, Air 4, Earth 2, Earth 4,
and Water Elemental all count as healers. You're guaranteed at least
one of them.
And yes, I've had Water 11 and 12 several times (extremely rare), and Earth 11 and 12. (Less rare, but still quite unusual)
| IIZannoII | 2009-04-07 23:34:22 |
I may be overlooking ice guard. I'll keep an eye out.
| garcia1000 | 2009-04-11 14:09:51 |
Bump for newbie guide, answer to
Q: How do I beat phoenix!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!? | VladDracul | 2009-05-21 12:14:49 |
Bump for newbie guide, answer to
Q: How do I beat phoenix!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!? You do not have to beat phoenix.
Just kill your opponent![]( "Laugh :-D")
| LDiCesare | 2009-05-21 18:36:56 |
To the question "Why can't I build my own deck", I read the answer as:I
It's not possible to balance cards for multiplayer, so you'll have random cards.
I think this is a really bad design decision.
I think Astral Masters is way better a game than Spectromancer for this reason. It was possible to design decks that were fun but not necessarily good. In Spectromancer, it is not possible. I wish I hadn't bought the game because once the campaign is over, there is no replay value in sp, and there is no strategic mp value, only tactical...
| LazerBrain | 2009-05-21 19:54:35 |
Strategy isn't organizing elements that are not subject to change prior to any events taking place, its developing an overall plan and using tactical decisions to implement it... crazy as it sounds you can even make strategic decisions after initial moves! An example of a tactical maneuver in spectromancer would using flamewave to eliminate a key mana producer, A strategic decision in spectromancer would be looking at your cards and deciding that you will attempt to speed kill your opponent instead of attempting to achieve board supremacy. Or deciding to give up on pheonixes and shift from a delaying effort to prioritizing damage to the opponent, due to a change in his mana or knowledge gained from the cards he played. Maybe you drop a dragon.. or a pair of infernos.. how exactly you implement your new plan would be the "only tactical" part you're talking about, but the decision to stop vying for board control and direct your efforts on player damage would be a strategic one.
| LDiCesare | 2009-05-22 11:30:42 |
There is always a strategic element in all games. My point is that,
compared to Astral Masters, most of it went out of the window, and
Spectromancer looks like a dumbed down version of Astral Masters.
I also contend that not allowing to build decks fails against the "prevalence of âtournament decks.â".
A quick forum search in the top threads brings these out:
- "It might be better if new players found themselves getting beaten in a
variety of ways, but if they're beaten the same way over and over in a
similar fashion its easier to try different things against it". Looks like it's very repetitive.
- Death isn't being played or played against because it is considered boring/too easy.
So instead of having a variety of deck types that we could build upon,
we only have random decks among 5 classes, one of which is banned by
several players because of only one or two cards that might be in it
when the game is played.
Even a simplified 'Draft' version would make the game more interesting:
e.g. don't allow to choose among all cards but pick 4 among 6 randomly
chosen at the start.
I also disagree with the premise that "tournament decks" dominate in
all CCG. I think Star Chamber handles this nicely for instance.
| Squirry | 2009-05-22 12:27:31 |
Erm... somehow my post apperered as being written by LDiCesare... And I can't edit it EDIT: Wow, not only that; my post actually replaced his last post... How wierd oO
EDIT2: And now it's gone... Ok, i take that as a sign I am not supposed to reply to this 
Modified by Squirry on 2009-05-22 12:28:35 Modified by Squirry on 2009-05-23 14:04:02
| Wavelength | 2009-05-25 04:49:55 |
About the rules...
you have three creatures in each element that cost 1-3; 4-8; 9-11, the last one is totally random you can have for example, goblin berserker and wall of fire in one draw!
Also fire 5+ earth 3 if forbidden, water 11 and 12; earth 11 and 12 is also not allowed. (fire and air I have never seen them together but I don't now if they are allowed or not, tought I don't believe they are.
Another rule you will allways have at least one healing card in your deck. It may be only elvish healer but you will ALLWAYS have one. Cool finds, but I'm afraid a lot of this is wrong.
I too have gotten Water 11 + Water 12 together, and I'm 99% sure I've gotten Earth 11 + Earth 12 together. I have definitely gotten Fire 11 + Fire 12 together, though I'm not sure about Air.
The "9-11" part of your card-drawing algorithm can't be right, I feel. This would mean that the 12 could only be chosen as the "random card." To crunch the numbers, each player would have 3 cards from the ranges you mentioned, leaving 6 cards left over. Each player would have a one in six chance of drawing the 12. And I can tell you that your chances are a lot greater than 17% of drawing the 12 of a given element in a given game (it seems to me like it's closer to 33%, which would be your chances of drawing it if things were completely random).
I haven't done enough testing but it seems to me like you might always get exactly two healing cards, excluding extras your Special House throws you. Healing cards include Master Healer, Elven Healer, Ice Guard, Water Elemental, Air Faerie, Nature Ritual, and Rejuvenation. Obviously some of these are pretty unreliable, and the Ice Guard, while very useful, doesn't even heal you, but they all count as Heals and as such it's very possible to get Heal-Screwed. The rule might be "at least one" or it might be "two or three," but I can say for sure that you never get zero Heals, and any time I've ever counted it's been two.
I'd be interested to know about the Special House draw mechanics, too. I've heard a few people say that Wall of Reflections is actually uncommon (well under 50%) unless both people are playing Illusion, and when Plynx and I tested it, that (amazingly) appeared to hold true--I drew it about 6 times in around 25 draws. Obviously, the sample isn't large enough to say anything conclusively, so I was wondering what everyone else has found.
I believe you will always have at least one spell that deals damage to multiple creatures among your 16 non-Special cards. It can be a real shame if all you get is Chain Lightning. Note that Tornado and Call to Thunder don't count into that requirement. I THINK you always have at least one spell that can deal direct damage (Armageddon, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Natural Fury), though I'm not sure about that, and also not sure whether Call to Thunder counts.
It would definitely be nice if you guys at Three Donkeys could include this kind of stuff in the In-Game Manual! :)
| zhupons | 2009-05-25 08:41:03 |
I meant to write 9 - 12 above...
About the healing i've read that we get at least 1 healing card, and i've played games where the only thing I had was elven healer...
Besides i believe special class healing cards (divine intervention, insanian peacekeaper and DS [don't remember anything else]) count as healing. Though not 100 sure I believe I've had games where I only had divine intervention.
about the 11, 12 cost card being together.. I've got once air 11 and air 12. I've never seen or got the other ones but since a few people got them... I do still believe that something prevents them to being together as often as fire 9 and fire 11, or air 9 and air 11 wich, or water 10 and water 12 wich I see (and have) a lot.
About the direct damage I don't know but i believe you allways get one spread damage card (fire 6, fire 9 or air 8)...
This kind of things should be revealed and put online in spectromancer site...
Also the card list should have a link on the spetromancer site, because people can only acess the list if they know the link or look for the link in one of the topics in the forum (wich is not very pratical)!
| Wavelength | 2009-05-25 16:27:43 |
I meant to write 9 - 12 above...
About the healing i've read that we get at least 1 healing card, and i've played games where the only thing I had was elven healer...
Besides i believe special class healing cards (divine intervention, insanian peacekeaper and DS [don't remember anything else]) count as healing. Though not 100 sure I believe I've had games where I only had divine intervention.
about the 11, 12 cost card being together.. I've got once air 11 and air 12. I've never seen or got the other ones but since a few people got them... I do still believe that something prevents them to being together as often as fire 9 and fire 11, or air 9 and air 11 wich, or water 10 and water 12 wich I see (and have) a lot.
About the direct damage I don't know but i believe you allways get one spread damage card (fire 6, fire 9 or air 8)...
This kind of things should be revealed and put online in spectromancer site...
Also the card list should have a link on the spetromancer site, because people can only acess the list if they know the link or look for the link in one of the topics in the forum (wich is not very pratical)! OK, with 9-12 it makes more sense. Cool.
Perhaps you missed Ice Guard as a healing card? There are times I even miss Elven Healer as a healing card for some reason!
I do agree that 11+ 12 of the same class is pretty uncommon (though we've established it's never prohibited). I wonder what it is in the algorithm that makes it so rare, although I'm inclined to guess it has to do with balancing the total mana costs in your draw.
Are you sure that Acidic Rain, Stone Rain, and Armageddon don't count into the spread damage?
I think the two healing cards rule is true, ie you get at least two cards among elven healer, nature ritual, rejuvenation, master healer, ice guard, water elemental, and faerie sage, like Wavelength said. House cards don't factor in.
I am pretty sure you always get exactly one "sweep": flame wave, chain lightning, or inferno, like zhupons said.
Also, while it's relatively frequent to get 1+2 or even 2+3 in fire mana, it's extremely rare (if at all possible) in the other elements. It's nice to know that if your opponent blocks with an elven healer, they don't have nature ritual.
| zhupons | 2009-05-25 22:38:20 |
I believe they don't since they damage both players creatures...
I 'm almost 100% sure that both players will have inferno, chain lightning or flame wave (one of them)!
About healing I believe I read at least one, and i believe I had games where I had only one healing card but I'm not 100% sure.
| LazerBrain | 2009-06-25 20:15:04 |
Bump. Also, someone should pile all the draw rules and percentages into a nice compact post and stick it on here. I'd do it, but I hardly even play anymore, and I'm making sure I spend less time on here than in game.
| Zannoland | 2009-06-27 02:26:28 |
I think the two healing cards rule is true, ie you get at least two cards among elven healer, nature ritual, rejuvenation, master healer, ice guard, water elemental, and faerie sage, like Wavelength said. House cards don't factor in.
I am pretty sure you always get exactly one "sweep": flame wave, chain lightning, or inferno, like zhupons said.
Also, while it's relatively frequent to get 1+2 or even 2+3 in fire mana, it's extremely rare (if at all possible) in the other elements. It's nice to know that if your opponent blocks with an elven healer, they don't have nature ritual. it is possible to only get one. there have been some rather frustrating games i've had to play where all i had in that category was ice guard.
I just tested that on my data. It is possible to get only one healing card, but it's very rare, it occured less than 1/1000 (in all 22 recorded cases the card was Rejuvenation).
Apparently you also never get more than 4 healing cards.
| Wavelength | 2009-06-27 05:34:54 |
I just tested that on my data. It is possible to get only one healing card, but it's very rare, it occured less than 1/1000 (in all 22 recorded cases the card was Rejuvenation).
Apparently you also never get more than 4 healing cards. Very interesting stat. I have been looking for it and I have never gotten one healing card, but I'll definitely buy it if you said it happened.
Do Special cards count into Healing limit of 4 cards? Also, if so, do cards which heal creatures only (e.g. Paladin, Archangel, Chaotic Wave, Dark Ritual) count against that limit?
| FinalSlayer | 2009-06-27 05:51:36 |
Heh, funny, I played a game today where my only source of healing was the solitary Ice Guard. Perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me, but I distinctly recall searching for, and not finding, any other HP card.
Hm, only getting ice guard never happened in 20000 hotseat multiplayer draws. I just hope you missed Elven Healer or Master Healer, as opposed to hotseat multiplayer card distribution differing from online multiplayer.
I only counted non-special healing cards: Ice Guard, Water Elemental, Faerie Sage, Elven Healer, Nature Ritual, Rejuvenation, Master Healer.
By the way I checked NomadMonk's damage spell rule at the same time, and it held: you always get at least one spell that damages the opponent directly - Fire 11, Air 3, Air 6, Air 8, Earth 6.
| Zannoland | 2009-06-27 07:14:46 |
It happened to me today too. I'm convinced that these 1/10000 draws are the result of a glitch and nothing else, because apparently I've also drawn a banned combo before (wall of reflection/armageddon)
| Wavelength | 2009-06-27 19:28:33 |
The more I think about it, the more I think the deck-draw algorithms are really well designed. Pretty much the only time I feel I draw an "opportunity screw" (where my opponent can play a certain strategy and make my game utterly unwinnable) is when I get the rare healscrew (e.g. Master Healer and Water Elemental with poor mana-grow synergy) against a potential Rush or the somewhat less rare direct-damage screw (read as "only Chain Lightning") against certain Death or Holy sets.
| tempusfugit | 2009-07-12 02:44:07 |
I realise that all the experienced players are writing about the multi-player game, since the scenario is not challenging for long - for most players. However, it might be useful to have some tips for complete newbies here, since the word "basic" appears in the thread title. For a start in the scenario, at least one of the rules listed above doesn't apply in the single-player game - you can (and frequently do) have the same cards as your opponent. Then there are some very specific hints, which will be obvious to experienced players, but might also be useful for anyone looking for basic hints. For example: If you've been dealt Giant Spider (Earth 7), then if you want to use it to maximum advantage, play your other cards so that you will have 3 adjacent slots when you want to play it. Another placement point - you can use Merfolk Overlord (water 9) to best use if you use its ability to let other cards come straight into play. This too means having 3 adjacent slots, this time with Merfolk Overlord in the middle. Perhaps we need a really basic Basic thread for this sort of thing. tf
Modified by tempusfugit on 2009-07-12 03:32:39 | erickiller | 2009-07-12 17:00:31 |
Hmmm, here's a few if anyone's interested (I'm not sure if this is basic enough)... 1)Placing goblin berserkers all the way to the left and right and then placing another two spots over, and then placing a turtle or ice golem in between; like how to use berserkers without suffereing from its drawback.. 2) Placing hydra or lightning cloud all the way to the left so it kills creatures before the other cretures you have attack, so they can damage the opponent. 3) Placing good/vulnerable cards next to a holy gaurd like minautor, ice golem, ice gaurd, astral gaurd, or mind master. 4) Not using wrath of god on less than 4 creatures unless really necessary or useful 5) Being careful with sea sprite and using it more for destroying other creatures than damaging the opponent, and not getting carried away with it because it does do 2 damage to you (its not great to fill the baord with it, or even bring out more than 2 unless you have ice gaurd). That being said, he is very useful 6) Not forgetting to kill creatures like mana givers and ice golems, because these create problems for you if you lose track of them 7) Using Bargul for his attack power, but not as a big creatures (like use him next to merfolk overlord, with natural fury, or just at a point where you don't think he'll be blocked 8) Think a lot about whether the opponent armageddon, stone rain, or tornado 9) Look at a card list to see what cards the opponent can potentially play until you know it by heart. 10) Control 1 is a good card to play first turn against holy (if you go first, or to block a mana giver) or control (if you go first, or they weakness) and mech (if you go first or they use overtime first) 11) play chaos 1 in open slots, at least when you can (like your life is not too low) 12) Pay careful attention to your life, the opponents strategy, and make sure you have access to healing if you need it (figure out early on what your healing cards are, especially if the opponent is illusion).
Modified by erickiller on 2009-07-13 07:00:11 | LazerBrain | 2009-07-13 01:44:25 |
Place Ice guard's as far right as possible, so if he's gonna die in a given turn at least he may block some attacks on the way down the line. Of course don't place him somewhere that'll get him killed, if you can help it.
| Pancetta | 2009-07-13 19:23:38 |
I realise that all the experienced players are writing about the multi-player game, since the scenario is not challenging for long - for most players. However, it might be useful to have some tips for complete newbies here, since the word "basic" appears in the thread title.
Perhaps we need a really basic Basic thread for this sort of thing.
As a low level player - I would love to see more talk about basic/mid level strategy on the boards. | Squirry | 2009-07-13 23:34:01 |
Well there aint really such a thing as low/mid level strategy. Why would you want to know ways to win against bad players that won't work against people that know the game?
There is just strategy and understanding of the game. Depending on how good you are at that you will win or loose games. Sure you can play a lot of control and holy to get the "easy" wins, but in the end it will only increase your level so much until you start facing people that can beat you even if you choose the easy classes. Me for example. I reckon i could get to around level 11 or 12 maximum with my current understanding of the game. But even if i did only play with control (The house that i by far have the easiest time winning with) i would still hit a wall when facing players with a "natural" rank 12.
So really, unless you just want to show off to your friends about how high the number next to your name is, focus on getting to know the mechanics the game work by. Don't worry about what layer of the meta-game you are in, just try to better your understanding. After all, that is the only reasonable purpose for intellectual exercises like this game.
| erickiller | 2009-07-14 01:59:54 |
I apologize for the long post, but I have a lot to say... Most of what I say you will already know, have your own theories on, or have your own style for approaching, but I say it in case it'll help. A lot of early/midgame strategy is thinking, putting pressure on your opponent when he has little life, hitting open slots when you think you can do more damage to the opponent and blocking opponents creatures when you think you have the advantage in a longer game or he will beat you if you don't, and making good matchups. Good matchups are usually ones where your creature will destroy the opponents creature before he destroys yours, so that way you keep the pressure on him because he has to catch up with a spell or a new creature, while other things are happening. Examples: you have fire 3 blocking his earth 5 or water 5 blocking his earth 5 or fire 3 . you have minautor blocking his mana giver. You have lightning cloud blocking his elven healer. You have dragon blocking his mech 5 , or really just most creatures. You have a sea sprite blocking his mana giver. You have elemental blcoking his mana giver, turtle blocking his sea sprite, mana giver blocking his elven healer or earth 3 etc. Those are not the only kind of good matchups, there are ones where its just nice strategically, like astral gaurd, mana giver or earth 3 against any wall, or master healer or ice gaurd against lightning wall. Also, if you bring out a sea sprite on an elemental that just came out, even though it'll die, its a good matchup because the cheap sea sprite will do a lot of damage on the elemental before it builds up attack. Turtle against a big creature like titan or dragon can be a good matchup, and will be if you have a master healer. Turtle against troll is a good matchup, even though it loses, because it lasts so long that its pretty much break even, and turtle is cheaper and has lower attack than a troll. Elven healer can be a good matchup against a big creature, like even titan, if you have nothing to defend it, because its cheap, delays the titan, and heals you, which would probably be valuable in this kind of situation. A hydra can be a good blocker for a titan or big creature even though it'll lose, because it'll block it a long time (long enough to make it inert, usually), and still deal damage to all creatures. Certain creatures you do not want to block altogethor , usually, like phoenix, mindstealer, and even sea sprite. If you cannot just eat the damage, then your better off putting an ice gaurd in an open slot and healing later. Pheonix you will never kill, mindstealer you'll never kill in a matchup (only other creatures or spells), and sea sprite is not such a threat if he just hits you (he deals the opponent 2 damage and you have 5 damage, so the opponenet nets 3 damage). If you put an elven healer, for example in an open slot, it'll heal you 3 life and deal the opponent 2 damage. This means the opponent takes 4 damage a turn from this combo, and you take 2, and the elven healer is cheaper than sea sprite. Though, if sea sprite goes heads up against elven healer, he kills him while taking minimal damage... At the end of the game, blocking a big creature with damping tower can be good to protect the damage and slow their rush. Matchups are not everything, and you must see the big picture, but it is another factor to take into account when making decisions. It's very hard to make well balanced decisions, but this is another valuable tool that can be another factor in decision making. They are tools to use, not rules, and can be broken. For example, if you are low on life and being rushed, you may have to eventually block a sea sprite, and i often block him with a monk or water 3, which are expendable because i get powers from them anyways. You may even take an awful matchup later on if you just need to hold off a big creature because you will win otherwise, like a mana giver against a dragon. Like this isn't set in stone, and you must think and use creativity for what is the best matchups or decisions to make. Try to have a clear picture of exactly what the results will be; really know exactly the outcome. Sometimes, often, I think of exactly the outcome and then change my decision because I then realize something better. Anyways, matchups are important. Combinations are important too. For beginners, try experimenting use dragon with spells like chain lightning, poisonous cloud, holy 4 (and 6), and air 6 and earth 6 (those two are towards the end of the game). Finally, a very useful point is that it is nearly always safe to bring out big creatures like 30 hp+ because it survives the biggest damage spells like armageddon or stone rain. If you're afraid of one of those two spells (hopefully not both), then bringing out a big creature/ elemental is a good move, especially because they might not play it. I especially like master healer when at risk of a board clearer like these. BTw, monks are always good cards, fairyh sages workwell with holy 5 and earth elemental, and merfolk overlord or spidar are both good when going in for the kill. Modified by erickiller on 2009-07-14 02:27:49 | Zannoland | 2009-07-14 02:46:57 |
Here is a very important tip about spell usage: Optimally, when casting Fire 2/Fire 6/Air 3/Air 8, you want the spell damage to be what kills the creature, not your round of attacks. This is because by casting your spells in this way, your creature will attack the opponent directly and your opponent cannot stop it. So, sometimes waiting one turn to cast your spell instead of casting it immediately may cause a lot more damage to sink through than normal. This is absolutely essential to playing the Dragon/Chain Lightning strategy, and I have also won many games I should have lost, because my opponent did not see that one of his creatures would survive Armageddon and do enough damage to kill me. Once you understand this facet of gameplay, Fire 2 becomes one of the most powerful cards in the game. Two important exceptions to this: For creatures with on turn effects such as mana growers, you have to make a decision between denying your opponent some mana or doing damage. Sometimes denying them the mana is the better decision, especially if it is Earth 5. Second, if your creature is going to die on your opponent's next turn, whether through a possible spell or just creature damage, then it may be more beneficial to cast the wipe so that your creature can kill the enemy and earn an extra round of attacks, as well as an extra mana if it's a mana growing card. No matter what, you are completely wasting your spell if neither the creature damage nor the spell damage is killing at least one of your opponent's creatures (unless of course, you need to cast two spells in a row to accomplish what you need to do). This is a very common mistake at lower levels of play. Modified by Zannoland on 2009-07-14 02:51:43 If you choose to delay your sweep (Flame Wave/Chain Lightning/etc) for one turn to get more damage against the opponent, though, make sure that the opponent cannot play a sweep of his own to kill your creatures first.
Afterwards your sweep would still kill his creatures, but then it would be his turn on a free board. A few points of damage are rarely worth giving up the initiative.
Here are some misconceptions I think beginners tend to have. At least I did. They are basically successive poor heuristics. The order follows the level more or less.
-Just trying to kill your opponent's creatures, move for move.
-Stalling all the time.
-Not paying attention to the opponent's possible moves. I'd say this is the biggest vector of progress between, say, levels 5-10. Whenever you get surprised by a good move or strategy from the opponent, learn to look for it, and play accordingly. Always look at your opponent's powers. Also, if you didn't know this use of the card, try it.
-Being too trigger-happy with 'counters', like stone rain > turtle, etc. Counters are situational, like basically everything. There's no shortcut to checking that the situation post-counter is going to be good for you.
-Dividing the cards from good to bad, and always playing the 'good' ones, reassuring yourself that you played a good move. Good cards are situational, even more so than counters. And bad cards have uses, knowing them really adds up. For me at least, finding more uses for cards has been the biggest vector of progress above, say, level 12.
As you may have noticed, my heuristic/misconception right now is that everything is situational. :)
Avoid getting caught up in the above, or otherwise repeating the same approach again and again. A second thing is, play stronger players, and learn from them. It is a lot easier if you chat. For instance I've learned a ton from Erickiller (thanks a lot!), and less from Cleopatra, even though we've played 100+ games now, because we often don't chat. (Cleopatra is still very nice and very enjoyable to play with though, that's not what I'm saying)
| erickiller | 2009-07-14 13:07:36 |
About sweeps, Silbe makes an excellent point about getting your sweeps before his can kill your creatures.. Also, it is not necessary to finish off the creatures with the sweep to do damage to an opponent. If your creatures and sweep kill two creatures that turn, only one creature can block you the next turn. It is very important to give the opponent more to deal with than he can handle. If you have two creatures out when he has zero, and you bring out a creature each turn, he'll always be playing catchup and take damage each turn (of course you have to watch out for a board clearer. This is why it is dangerous to just sit and meditate because you'll fall behind, unless you have a clearer like death 7, acid rain (have 8 water b4 you start meditating), Armageddon, dragon with holy 4 , or something up your sleeve.. But its key to just lay on the damage, and if he's somewhat near death you may just want to throw a lightning bolt or natural fury at him. This will bring him near death, so he becomes overwhelmed because he wants to heal and also falls behind in board control, or then cant cast something he's been saving up for... In addition, if you are set up to beat an opponent with both creatures attacking and a spell to kill him, there is usually nothing he can do, so just keep pushing at the opponent. There are many ways to overwhelm an opponent. Modified by erickiller on 2009-07-14 20:23:27 | FinalSlayer | 2009-07-15 07:34:52 |
Yeah, there are far more important considerations when playing a sweep than whether you get an extra 3-8 points of damage or not that turn, especially in v1.03. Oh, and nice job by Silbe in pointing out common, but poor heuristics.
| Zannoland | 2009-07-15 08:43:04 |
I simplified the matter a little bit too much. The situations I was thinking about were primarily involving a sweep killing a creature blocked by high damage, be a dragon or a high power elemental. In these situations if you sweep a turn early, the 9+ damage creature will be blocked instead of one of your 3-5s, and you lose a lot of damage in the process. Obviously an opponent sweep is an important factor that I was too vague in addressing. In the early game when all you have is low damage creatures on the field, it's less important. I guess what I was trying to get at is "maximize damage".
| garcia1000 | 2009-09-04 10:47:54 |
Here are some questions that new players often have.
Q: I can't choose my own cards, this makes the game luck-based and no strategy. A: Unfortunately, we didn't emphasise this important fact in our marketing, despite that most of our target audience is used to CCGs and would find it pretty weird that you can't choose your own decks. Sorry about that. We will try to market it better later.
Q: This game doesn't have enough cards. I pay for game with only 78 cards?? omg ripoff more cards pls A: Also our target audience comes from CCGs where hundreds or thousands of cards is the norm. Also we didn't say anything about how the cards are balanced very well and every card is useful. So even though you'll find the game really fun if you tried it, you probably will not even give it a chance. Man, sorry about our product positioning. We tried our best.
...
Ok, seriously though, everyone says some version of the above and I think this could be a problem | Squirry | 2009-09-04 13:47:17 |
Actually my main reason to buy the game was exactly those two points. I've played more than enough games where your "skill" was decided by the size of your wallet and funny as it may be those games was also full of completely useless cards that noone ever used.
What makes Spectromancer a great and unique game is:
- It's not a collectible card game
- It's not chess in fantasy card-form
- It's not just a matchup between the 2-3 "best" decks over and over again
- It is extremely dependent on player ability and strategic thinking
- It is hard to master and thus rewards practice
I fully agree that they should rehash the game description on the page as we get plenty players that think this is yet another MtG or another Pokemon or another whatever. The reason this game is good is because it's not those games.
This game is really difficult to master. Its by far the most strategic game I've ever played.
Now I'm a big fan of TCGs, because deck building is my strength in competitive gaming. I missed it here too, but what they've made is a gem that will really test your strategic thinking. One of the best deals in gaming.
Oh I suppose I could use the word tactical instead, for those who think of strategic as the elements you bring to each game (i.e. deckbuilding in CCG). That said, in this game there is definitely long-term and short-term tactical planning that will definitely lead to the better players winning most of the time.
| Noctilucus | 2010-02-11 16:59:27 |
...I've played more than enough games where your "skill" was decided by the size of your wallet and funny as it may be those games was also full of completely useless cards that noone ever used.
...
Exactly, especially the absence of loads of utterly useless cards is an achievement in itself.
Plus the fact that the random card dealing forces players to improve their tactics rather than trying to find winning card combinations / decks.
| shteev | 2010-03-31 23:52:31 |
Never play Elvish Healer on turn 1? Really? I've met a lot of beatdown style Illusionists online, and generally I find gaining as much life as humanly possible against them to be a solid tactic.
That said, I'm not sure if I ever *have* played one on turn 1. Oh, maybe if my opponent's turn 1 was a Water 2 Water Sprite.
| Plynx103 | 2010-04-01 01:53:20 |
Probably not the best move if you have any other healing. You're better off just blocking the opponents creatures (if they're illusion); except water sprites ya.
Also, these points were made before fairy sage was nerfed, and probably before elven healer was buffed to 2 attack.
| wiggin | 2010-04-02 21:29:24 |
This guide is from version 1.02, when Elvish Healer had 1 attack instead of 2. You can play it in the first turn now. (My guides should be stickied instead. :) )
| Wavelength | 2010-04-05 06:46:33 |
That said, I'm not sure if I ever *have* played one on turn 1. Oh, maybe if my opponent's turn 1 was a Water 2 Water Sprite. I often play Elven Healer on turn 1, particularly if I'm convinced he has Priest of Fire or I'm holding Merfolk Elder but would rather save my Water mana. In fact, in general, the only thing I'd take ahead of it (short of a mana gainer, obviously, or a special house card like Goblin Shaman) is to pump fire and get Bargul out turn 2 or Fire Elemental turn 3.
Modified by Wavelength on 2010-04-05 06:47:08 | Wavelength | 2010-05-19 17:43:30 |
Also, the original post says that only Holy is allowed with a free account, which of course used to be true but isn't anymore.
| Pharmer | 2010-05-20 05:00:10 |
So why don't they make everybody happy and offer a lobby where you can build your own deck and also one where the deck is random. Then you can choose where to play. Seems simple to me, am I missing something?
| panderson | 2010-05-20 09:09:28 |
No ... everybody would choose the former and the game would be 10 times dumber. You build your perfect deck and you play it 100 times without really mastering the game . Any game would be just a test to find a fitter deck like in Astral Master. So why don't they make everybody happy and offer a lobby where you can build your own deck and also one where the deck is random. Then you can choose where to play. Seems simple to me, am I missing something? So why don't they make everybody happy and offer a lobby where you can build your own deck and also one where the deck is random. Then you can choose where to play. Seems simple to me, am I missing something? Maybe because they care about their game and don't want it to be played in such a stupidly broken way.
Building your deck cannot work in a game with so few cards.
Modified by LPML on 2010-05-20 14:32:06 | bibibibibi | 2010-05-20 14:59:10 |
If you want to build your own deck just play another game. There are many of them.
Actually this is the only card game I like, because it is more strategic. Others are just about having the best deck and being lucky on the cards order, oftenly.
Btw, choosing the cards will make both players have some mirror cards. Wich breaks much of the guessing and the strategy. ;) Modified by bibibibibi on 2010-05-20 15:12:03 | Wavelength | 2010-05-20 16:46:14 |
You know, in the past I've been, like most of you guys, firmly against the idea of any type of deck customization in Spectromancer. But as I started to write a rebuttal against the idea, it occured to me that it might not be such a bad idea to have in one channel. After all, it would actually open up a lot of interesting decisions. I'm under the assumption that you'd get to pick four cards (unrestricted by cost) from each Basic House and four cards from one Special House. Sure, a few picks (like Tornado and, generally, Merfolk Apostate) would be obvious under these settings. But then, do you choose low cards in each set, mostly high cards, or a mix? Do you choose Armageddon or Dragon? Do you choose both, leaving your early game at a lack in order to achieve greater flexibility later on? Assuming a "prepackaged" Phoenix setup would be the most dominant hand (which I think it would be in general), do you go with the obvious strategy of Holy's Divine Intervention to pump your Fire and Air? Do you try to turn your opponent's Fire mana against them with Sorcery's Mana Burn? Or do you try to beat the opponent before they can ever get the wheels rolling with Illusion's Wall of Reflections (and cards like Lightning Bolt to complement it)? Or maybe you go crazy and stack your deck with healing, stalling, and scaling damage cards for an Ancient Horror strategy? Again, this isn't really what Spectromancer is made for, and it shouldn't ever be the "standard" of the game, but to include it as a side game... well, the idea has far greater merits than I originally thought. Modified by Wavelength on 2010-05-20 17:08:42 Wave, the problem I see is that because so few cards exist, the best combinations would be found in no time at all. In a game with so few cards there would be a tiny amount of competitively viable decks. Also, Spectromancer is not the kind of game that constantly releases new cards. That ensures that the metagame would remain stagnant. The top tier deck would remain top tier until the next major expansion which probably won't be coming any time soon, if at all. Stagnant games are often boring. Modified by LPML on 2010-05-20 20:52:13 | HeadphonesGirl | 2010-05-23 00:09:46 |
You know, in the past I've been, like most of you guys, firmly against the idea of any type of deck customization in Spectromancer. But as I started to write a rebuttal against the idea, it occured to me that it might not be such a bad idea to have in one channel.
After all, it would actually open up a lot of interesting decisions. I'm under the assumption that you'd get to pick four cards (unrestricted by cost) from each Basic House and four cards from one Special House.
Sure, a few picks (like Tornado and, generally, Merfolk Apostate) would be obvious under these settings. But then, do you choose low cards in each set, mostly high cards, or a mix? Do you choose Armageddon or Dragon? Do you choose both, leaving your early game at a lack in order to achieve greater flexibility later on?
Assuming a "prepackaged" Phoenix setup would be the most dominant hand (which I think it would be in general), do you go with the obvious strategy of Holy's Divine Intervention to pump your Fire and Air? Do you try to turn your opponent's Fire mana against them with Sorcery's Mana Burn? Or do you try to beat the opponent before they can ever get the wheels rolling with Illusion's Wall of Reflections (and cards like Lightning Bolt to complement it)?
Or maybe you go crazy and stack your deck with healing, stalling, and scaling damage cards for an Ancient Horror strategy?
Again, this isn't really what Spectromancer is made for, and it shouldn't ever be the "standard" of the game, but to include it as a side game... well, the idea has far greater merits than I originally thought. "The best" combinations would be found extremely quickly and would dominate the game, removing almost all of the forethought that makes Spectromancer what it is. Sorry man, but I can't remotely agree with you on this one. This simply is not a deck building game. | Yaksha | 2010-05-23 01:56:59 |
I don't understand why all the angst against a deck building version.
If you don't like it, then you don't have to play it. And if you think it's universally dumb, and you are confident about it, then you shouldn't be worried about it taking over online play.
I for one, would love the idea of a deck building version. Especially to play against the AI in the tournament mode (the one were you play lots of battles against different 'characters', each with a different 'scenario'). When I play the tournament mode, I can remember so many times when I've thought "I wonder how this hand would have worked against x other character". Except it takes a LOT of surrender / restart match to get even a similar hand so I can try a strategy against another scenario with the hand.
That aside, it would just be good practice. If your opponent /archmage uses a certain hand against you and you want to try it out. Or you just want to practice certain combos or experiment. I used to redraw against the archmage a LOT when I started playing, being able to just specify what cards I wanted.
Honestly no one is asking for deckbuilding to REPLACE spectromancer as it is. In fact most of the suggestions have been about keeping it separate (wavelength's idea of a separate channel). So even if it turns out as you guys say, the best combinations are found and dominates the game, well you can just stick in the normal channel. I'm not sure how the problem would 'leak' over to you.
Except giving you more flexibility when you and your buddy want to practice with certain decks ("oh, that was played really well. Can we rematch but with our decks swapped so i can try that strategy?")
| Wavelength | 2010-05-23 23:49:00 |
... "The best" combinations would be found extremely quickly and would dominate the game, removing almost all of the forethought that makes Spectromancer what it is. Sorry man, but I can't remotely agree with you on this one. This simply is not a deck building game.
No need to apologize, and I think you're right the "best" combinations would be found. And it wouldn't be a particularly amazing game, certainly not as good as the semi-random deck building we have. But what I'm saying is that even the "best" combinations have counters and weaknesses. If the "best" strategy involved stalling and saving up for a huge Armageddon, you could counter that strategy using Mana Burn and Rejuvenation. If the "best" strategy involved saving up your Earth and Air mana, using Stone Rain to keep the board clear while you shot Lightning Bolts at the enemy... you could counter it with a Golem-based deck. There'd be a nice amount of strategy in metagaming and deck building. It's something I'd like to see in just one channel, and I think it's great to discuss the merits and drawbacks, because perhaps I am overrating the idea.
| HeadphonesGirl | 2010-05-24 04:59:07 |
Well I guess what I mean is I just don't really agree that the amount of strategy would be nice at all. Spectromancer doesn't have enough cards for that.
You could come up with "decks" that would counter the "best" deck but because there are so few cards, and the game was not balanced with this in mind, there would invariably be one or two designs that would mostly thwart all counter attempts, and counter attempts would be so highly specialized that they would not be very viable aside from playing against exactly what they were supposed to counter.
This is why deck building games have thousands of cards and regularly ban certain ones that they deem overly dominant, so the variety of viable decks is reasonably large. Even with that level of variety the vast majority of cards in any CCG are rarely or never used. | Wavelength | 2010-05-24 14:42:37 |
Well I guess what I mean is I just don't really agree that the amount of strategy would be nice at all. Spectromancer doesn't have enough cards for that.
You could come up with "decks" that would counter the "best" deck but because there are so few cards, and the game was not balanced with this in mind, there would invariably be one or two designs that would mostly thwart all counter attempts, and counter attempts would be so highly specialized that they would not be very viable aside from playing against exactly what they were supposed to counter.
This is why deck building games have thousands of cards and regularly ban certain ones that they deem overly dominant, so the variety of viable decks is reasonably large. Even with that level of variety the vast majority of cards in any CCG are rarely or never used. Well, I dunno. Most of the counters to any powerful strategy only take one or two cards, so you could still keep a general-use deck that had a few cards to counter the one or two "dominant" strategies at the time. I think the biggest pitfall is that since you'd still have so much room, you'd automatically be putting in really good cards (in this format) like Rejuvenation, two high Fire cards, and Tornado, as well. Yes, overall there would be a lot less variability than the decks we use now. Most of the banned cards in CCG's, at least that I know of, are a result of wild imbalance in the first one or two sets (Yu-Gi-Oh's Raegeki and Pot of Greed? Seriously?), or are a result of obscure, extremely specialized combos (MTG's "Squee, Goblin Nabob" might have been the inspiration for Spectromancer's Phoenix) that the creators might or might not have seen coming. The first is not a problem in Spectro, and would not be a significant problem in deckbuilding play. The second one probably WOULD be a problem in deckbuilding play, but at least most combinations have several good counters. The third problem is that most CCG's have an element of luck of the draw, which really means that in any given game you might draw a "deck" of 25 out of the 60 cards in your deck, for example. And you only start with maybe 7 of those cards. In Spectro, you can use your cards any time, meaning that broken combos become that much more broken. In spite of all that, I feel that the game would be fun ENOUGH with deckbuilding to make it worth having a channel for. To be able to create the deck that topples the current dominant one... that would be quite rewarding, indeed.
Modified by Wavelength on 2010-05-24 14:43:14 | wiggin | 2010-05-24 19:28:50 |
I think it would be rather easy to make such a channel. It would involve merely a simple card selecting screen at game start.
Modified by wiggin on 2010-05-24 19:29:23 | Wavelength | 2010-05-24 19:56:10 |
Hopefully you could create a default deck to use as well to speed things up a little. :)
| Floofy | 2010-06-08 00:34:25 |
I think that something really cool would be a deck building version with variable cards
When the game begins, both players see all cards, but every cards would be a variant of existing cards. then both players build their decks (3 minute to do it maybe?)
However, all versions of the card would be somewhat balanced. Heres an example with goblin berzeker
Version 1: 16 life, 4 attack, 2 damage to allies
Version 2: 18 life, 5 attack, 4 damage to allies
Version 3: 18 life, 4 attack, 3 damage to allies
Version 4: 13 life, 5 attack, 2 damage to allies
Version 5: 14 life, 4 attack, 1 damage to allies
With such variance in the cards, it would become impossible to always keep the same deck. for example, there could be versions of dragon with weak % of damage which makes your classic spell deck bad, etc
By the way, even if a creature is at its "best version", it doesn't mean you should automaticelly pick it, instead you can pick counters to it.... Modified by Floofy on 2010-06-08 00:36:03 | HeadphonesGirl | 2010-06-08 04:54:07 |
You can't rebalance things that easily. For example, your 5/18 goblin that does 4 damage to neighboring creatures would be incredibly broken in combination with water 4 or 7.
| Wavelength | 2010-06-08 05:29:44 |
Interesting, if clumsy, idea. How would you work with a card like Astral Guard, Forest Sprite, Rejuvenation, or Cannonade?
| Floofy | 2010-06-08 05:53:36 |
Headphone: That was just an example, you are right that one version of the berzeker would be bad....
Wave: good question.
Astral guard would be difficult to work out.... maybe something like this
Version 1: 16 life, 1 attack, stop all ennemy powers
Version 2: 20 life, 1 attack, stop all ennemy elemental powers
Version 3: 16 life, 5 attack, stop all ennemy elemental powers
Version 4: 14 life, 4 attack, stop all ennemy powers
for canonade the only way i see is an indirect way to make it cheaper, like angel
Version 1: 20 damage to all ennemies
Version 2: 18 damage to all ennemies, +1 mecanic power
Version 3: 16 damage to all ennemies, +2 mecanic power
Version 4: 14 damage to all ennemies, +3 mecanic power
Forest sprite maybe something like this
Version 1: 22 life, 1 damage to all ennemies
Version 2: 20 life, 1 damage to all ennemies, +1 damage to the one in front of forest sprite
Version 3: 18 life, 1 damage to all ennemies, +2 damage to the one in front of forest sprite
Version 4: 16 life, 1 damage to all ennemies, +3 damage to the one in front of forest sprite
could also play with the damage it does to opponement
Rejuvenation now thats hard.....
Version 1: gains an amount of life equal to twice Earth power.
Version 2: gains an amount of life equal to 1.5x Earth power +4
Version 3: gains an amount of life equal to Earth power +8
Version 4: gains an amount of life equal to half Earth power +13
Btw, it does not have to be perfectly balanced....you would have to look at synergies too. For example, even if the version ou get of fire elemental is nice, well, if the merfolk apostate sucks maybe you won't take it. Also, if you just take good versions of things, opponement can predict your deck and counter it.
Also, i have only made 4-5 versions but ideally, there should be more than that, to make sure its impossible to just learn those Modified by Floofy on 2010-06-08 06:03:25 | 
